7 ms·

It should be impossible for any set of non-damaged, non-defective, spec-compliant set of USB-C cables and peripherals to cause fires. The specifications are ver

by zlsa 5y ago

It should be impossible for any set of non-damaged, non-defective, spec-compliant set of USB-C cables and peripherals to cause fires. The specifications are very carefully designed to prevent any combination of cables and devices from causing damage.

koube 5y ago
The Nintendo Switch can be bricked if you use the wrong cable, although my understanding is that it's not built to the USB-C spec: https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_switch_is_not_usbc_compliant_and_overdraws/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_... Either way, this is an incredibly common device that can be damaged by incompatible hardware where it's difficult to determine compatibility without bricking the device.
- fouric 5y ago
  > it's difficult to determine compatibility without bricking the device This is the problem! This is what everybody talking about the specs doesn't get - it's difficult to (1) tell which spec a device claims to support and (2) verify that it actually supports it (see: a lot of cheap devices on Amazon) and also (3) in real life many devices do not support the specs (i.e. this isn't a theoretical problem).
  - vokep 5y ago
    Unless I'm mistaken, there is a license to call a port a USB port, though goods are commonly sold without that. In theory the solution is simple: only buy products that have the actual USB logo and ensure certification, and the USB-IF should retain the right to significantly fine any manufacturer advertising being to spec and using the logo who is in fact not. In practice, people aren't going to stop buying nintendo switches, unfortunately. Still, its not entirely necessary to support all specs or have that be entirely clear, what does need to be clear is if you can expect safety specs to be followed. If I plug in my nintendo switch to a charger thinking it'll charge at lightspeed but it takes hours, oh well. If I plug it in and it destroys the device then that should be pretty much an unforgivable problem. Personally I'd be happy to abstain from buying such a device due to that, though also personally I did buy one, expecting no issues, and only found out months later when seeing it mentioned somewhere online. Ideally research is done on every product to ensure things like this aren't the case, but again in practice, that doesn't always happen. I'm not sure what the fix is, other than outright making USB not so universal by requiring a license for any and all vendors using the design, if the license is cheap enough, maybe that could work? I don't know the legalities so much but maybe a free license could be required for any implementation, which would only have the spec of "make sure it doesn't brick charger or device, and make sure it doesn't catch on fire"
    - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
      One solution could be to require different connectors for different protocols and power delivery. I'm beginning to suspect The Great Filter is Jony Ive's minimalist design influence: any sufficiently advanced culture will annihilate itself before it discovers interstellar travel when someone connects two devices together that aren't compatible with the equivalent of a One True Connector™ USB cable.
      - sgtnoodle 5y ago
        I like to imagine there's an alien species zipping around in FTL space ships, and the only difference from us is they picked one endianness and ran with it.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      > only buy products that have the actual USB logo I just took my Samsung A50 out of the case, no USB logo anywhere on the device. There's the Samsung logo, some recycling logo and a CE logo, and that's it.
- chimeracoder 5y ago
  > Either way, this is an incredibly common device that can be damaged by incompatible hardware where it's difficult to determine compatibility without bricking the device. This is 100% Nintendo's fault for using the USB-C connector type but not actually bothering to adhere to the USB-C specification.
  - mjevans 5y ago
    It would be OK if they didn't claim to be complaint, and FAILED SAFELY when used with complaint devices. The issue is that they're both not compliant AND fail in a non-safe bad way.
    - chimeracoder 5y ago
      IMO the issue is that they fail unsafe, whether or not they claim compliance. Nintendo doesn't claim compliance, but if they're using the connector shape, it should comply with the spec for power delivery (which is honestly not even hard to do).
    - notatoad 5y ago
      again though, this is bad but not a flaw in usb-c. a manufacturer created a device that violates the spec. MicroUSB devices can also be bricked by using non-conforming cables and power adapters, but fortunately devices like that are rare because the spec has existed long enough that all the bad devices have been flushed out of the market. manufacturers having made stupid decisions in the past does not mean we shouldn't make USB-C better now.
      - tremon 5y ago
        It absolutely is a flaw in usb-c that a large manufacturer can create a device that violates the spec and not face serious repercussions.
  - mortenjorck 5y ago
    Exactly. If you're going to base your interconnect on an industry standard, you have two options as far as I'm concerned: A) Follow the spec B) Make your off-spec interconnect physically incompatible with standard devices Going off-spec with a compatible and physically indistinguishable connector is an "attractive nuisance," to use the tort term.
- evilduck 5y ago
  Is this actually a current problem? I haven't heard of this issue occurring at all in recent years beyond "better safe than sorry" warnings against it when people still ask, and even the original claims didn't seem especially widespread. While it's anecdotal, I've been charging Switches in my household with all sorts of USB-C sources for a couple years now as well (20W Apple chargers, 18W Anker bricks, a MacBook Air, external battery packs, 12v car adapters, etc) and they're all still working.
Workaccount2 5y ago
>The specifications are very carefully designed I need assurance though that my cables were carefully designed.
- notatoad 5y ago
  buy your cables from reputable manufacturers...
NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
Yeah the problem is that there's nothing to stop product designers from specifying the connectors even though the device doesn't logically support the implied standards. Some people here talked about the Switch; but it's a general problem. For example: I have an external USB drive that has a Type A USB 3 host socket on the back of it (???). It came with a cable with a Type A USB 3 plug on one end and a USB C plug on the other end. Now that's a combination of connectors you will definitely see elsewhere. I have such a cable that came with my PS5 for charging its controllers - but I know for a fact that it's not interchangeable with the one for my external drive.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  But what does universal shape of connector has to do with? Power negotiation applies to USB-A just as it does with USB-C... (I think)
  - chx 5y ago
    > Power negotiation applies to USB-A Nope it doesn't.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - dzhiurgis 5y ago
      Which is why there's more fires with usb-a
      - chx 5y ago
        nah, there's more fires with USB A because it's more widespread, simple as that. There are plenty C cables from your favorite online dollar store (amazon, aliexpress, jd etc) which are a serious fire hazard.
Animats 5y ago
It should be impossible for any set of non-damaged, non-defective, spec-compliant set of USB-C cables and peripherals to cause fires. Then there's the crap offered for sale on Alibaba which somebody will resell on Amazon and which will show up on a checkout rack at the gas station. USB-C has very tight tolerances and unusual material requirements. Dirt or water can create a conductive path all too easily with USB-C pin spacing. "Decreasing the risk of fire in USB-C connectors" is worth watching.[1] It's an ad for a plastic material, but covers the problems. [1] https://youtu.be/jYqDh9q5H6I https://youtu.be/jYqDh9q5H6I
- jiofih 5y ago
  I’ve never heard of USB-C causing a fire. The control ICs should cut the current the moment anything is out of spec. Do you have any examples of that?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - mike_d 5y ago
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/7j3k38/anker_usbc_cable_warning_wife_woke_up_to_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/7j3k38/anker_usbc_... https://wccftech.com/macbook-survives-disables-all-usb-ports-to-prevent-damage-after-attached-usb-c-cable-started-to-smoke/ https://wccftech.com/macbook-survives-disables-all-usb-ports... Researchers even developed an exploit for some USB-C fast chargers that forces it to deliver max power and try to catch the connected device on fire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es2SqubYSfo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es2SqubYSfo
    - baybal2 5y ago
      The problem is the gazillion of proprietary fast charging standards. Some of them were designed for chargers with attached cable, and not disconnectable one. Many charger ICs emulate the fast charging signalling to trick phones into charging faster, but they of course have no way to check if wiring is ok on micro-usb. So you can end up with 5A-10A going over flimsy wires/contact pads. Or if they use type-c, they can end up using fake 5A cables. Or in case of VOOC, they don't check if the cable is an actual VOOC cable, which goes over 5A.
II2II 5y ago
> It should be impossible for any set of non-damaged, non-defective, spec-compliant set of USB-C cables and peripherals to cause fires. That is a fairly significant list of conditions. As an example, I have encountered significant heating in a damaged power cable on the original power supply of a laptop from a reputable vendor. It's easy to argue the owner should immediately replace the damaged power supply, yet many people will continue to use problematic hardware until it no longer functions. It is also the case that many companies will manufacture components down to a price (or, in the case of this vendor, for aesthetics) rather than make something that is robust. I find it a bit disconcerting that we're talking about delivering 240 W over a cable that consumers are unlikely to differentiate from a 15 W cable (i.e. USB-C specification) or even from a 2.5 W cable (e.g a USB cable they would have used fifteen years ago).
- iainmerrick 5y ago
  I find it a bit disconcerting that we're talking about delivering 240 W over a cable that consumers are unlikely to differentiate from a 15 W cable (i.e. USB-C specification) or even from a 2.5 W cable (e.g a USB cable they would have used fifteen years ago). Yes, exactly! It’s foolhardy. And maybe unnecessary -- haven’t Apple just shown that you can get amazing performance with very low power requirements? And shouldn’t we all be trying to minimize power usage, to try to reduce CO2 emissions, mining of rare and toxic elements, plastic waste, etc etc etc?
  - lovemenot 5y ago
    What you say about efficiency is right, but it's complicated. There are many domestic devices on 110 / 220v AC using less than 250W. They are native DC, but source AC because they must. These devices are not likely to go away soon. In fact they'll proliferate so long as the developing world is still developing. We can also expect proliferation of domestic battery and solar: both DC sources. A standardised domestic micro-grid of DC sources and consuming devices could be a boon to efficiency and reduction of single-purpose conversion devices such as power bricks and inverters. As an example, every type of e-bicycle currently has a different proprietary adapter. Just as mobile phones once did. Most e-bikes charge at around 40v. With 250W USB available we will likely see a switch to USB by e-bile manufacturers, resulting in more common lower cost equipment and better interoperability.

by zlsa 5y ago

koube 5y ago

The Nintendo Switch can be bricked if you use the wrong cable, although my understanding is that it's not built to the USB-C spec: https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_switch_is_not_usbc_compliant_and_overdraws/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_... Either way, this is an incredibly common device that can be damaged by incompatible hardware where it's difficult to determine compatibility without bricking the device.

fouric 5y ago
> it's difficult to determine compatibility without bricking the device This is the problem! This is what everybody talking about the specs doesn't get - it's difficult to (1) tell which spec a device claims to support and (2) verify that it actually supports it (see: a lot of cheap devices on Amazon) and also (3) in real life many devices do not support the specs (i.e. this isn't a theoretical problem).
- vokep 5y ago
  Unless I'm mistaken, there is a license to call a port a USB port, though goods are commonly sold without that. In theory the solution is simple: only buy products that have the actual USB logo and ensure certification, and the USB-IF should retain the right to significantly fine any manufacturer advertising being to spec and using the logo who is in fact not. In practice, people aren't going to stop buying nintendo switches, unfortunately. Still, its not entirely necessary to support all specs or have that be entirely clear, what does need to be clear is if you can expect safety specs to be followed. If I plug in my nintendo switch to a charger thinking it'll charge at lightspeed but it takes hours, oh well. If I plug it in and it destroys the device then that should be pretty much an unforgivable problem. Personally I'd be happy to abstain from buying such a device due to that, though also personally I did buy one, expecting no issues, and only found out months later when seeing it mentioned somewhere online. Ideally research is done on every product to ensure things like this aren't the case, but again in practice, that doesn't always happen. I'm not sure what the fix is, other than outright making USB not so universal by requiring a license for any and all vendors using the design, if the license is cheap enough, maybe that could work? I don't know the legalities so much but maybe a free license could be required for any implementation, which would only have the spec of "make sure it doesn't brick charger or device, and make sure it doesn't catch on fire"
  - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
    One solution could be to require different connectors for different protocols and power delivery. I'm beginning to suspect The Great Filter is Jony Ive's minimalist design influence: any sufficiently advanced culture will annihilate itself before it discovers interstellar travel when someone connects two devices together that aren't compatible with the equivalent of a One True Connector™ USB cable.
    - sgtnoodle 5y ago
      I like to imagine there's an alien species zipping around in FTL space ships, and the only difference from us is they picked one endianness and ran with it.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    > only buy products that have the actual USB logo I just took my Samsung A50 out of the case, no USB logo anywhere on the device. There's the Samsung logo, some recycling logo and a CE logo, and that's it.
chimeracoder 5y ago
> Either way, this is an incredibly common device that can be damaged by incompatible hardware where it's difficult to determine compatibility without bricking the device. This is 100% Nintendo's fault for using the USB-C connector type but not actually bothering to adhere to the USB-C specification.
- mjevans 5y ago
  It would be OK if they didn't claim to be complaint, and FAILED SAFELY when used with complaint devices. The issue is that they're both not compliant AND fail in a non-safe bad way.
  - chimeracoder 5y ago
    IMO the issue is that they fail unsafe, whether or not they claim compliance. Nintendo doesn't claim compliance, but if they're using the connector shape, it should comply with the spec for power delivery (which is honestly not even hard to do).
  - notatoad 5y ago
    again though, this is bad but not a flaw in usb-c. a manufacturer created a device that violates the spec. MicroUSB devices can also be bricked by using non-conforming cables and power adapters, but fortunately devices like that are rare because the spec has existed long enough that all the bad devices have been flushed out of the market. manufacturers having made stupid decisions in the past does not mean we shouldn't make USB-C better now.
    - tremon 5y ago
      It absolutely is a flaw in usb-c that a large manufacturer can create a device that violates the spec and not face serious repercussions.
- mortenjorck 5y ago
  Exactly. If you're going to base your interconnect on an industry standard, you have two options as far as I'm concerned: A) Follow the spec B) Make your off-spec interconnect physically incompatible with standard devices Going off-spec with a compatible and physically indistinguishable connector is an "attractive nuisance," to use the tort term.
evilduck 5y ago
Is this actually a current problem? I haven't heard of this issue occurring at all in recent years beyond "better safe than sorry" warnings against it when people still ask, and even the original claims didn't seem especially widespread. While it's anecdotal, I've been charging Switches in my household with all sorts of USB-C sources for a couple years now as well (20W Apple chargers, 18W Anker bricks, a MacBook Air, external battery packs, 12v car adapters, etc) and they're all still working.

Workaccount2 5y ago

>The specifications are very carefully designed I need assurance though that my cables were carefully designed.

notatoad 5y ago
buy your cables from reputable manufacturers...

NovemberWhiskey 5y ago

Yeah the problem is that there's nothing to stop product designers from specifying the connectors even though the device doesn't logically support the implied standards. Some people here talked about the Switch; but it's a general problem. For example: I have an external USB drive that has a Type A USB 3 host socket on the back of it (???). It came with a cable with a Type A USB 3 plug on one end and a USB C plug on the other end. Now that's a combination of connectors you will definitely see elsewhere. I have such a cable that came with my PS5 for charging its controllers - but I know for a fact that it's not interchangeable with the one for my external drive.

dzhiurgis 5y ago
But what does universal shape of connector has to do with? Power negotiation applies to USB-A just as it does with USB-C... (I think)
- chx 5y ago
  > Power negotiation applies to USB-A Nope it doesn't.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    Which is why there's more fires with usb-a
    - chx 5y ago
      nah, there's more fires with USB A because it's more widespread, simple as that. There are plenty C cables from your favorite online dollar store (amazon, aliexpress, jd etc) which are a serious fire hazard.

Animats 5y ago

It should be impossible for any set of non-damaged, non-defective, spec-compliant set of USB-C cables and peripherals to cause fires. Then there's the crap offered for sale on Alibaba which somebody will resell on Amazon and which will show up on a checkout rack at the gas station. USB-C has very tight tolerances and unusual material requirements. Dirt or water can create a conductive path all too easily with USB-C pin spacing. "Decreasing the risk of fire in USB-C connectors" is worth watching.[1] It's an ad for a plastic material, but covers the problems. [1] https://youtu.be/jYqDh9q5H6I https://youtu.be/jYqDh9q5H6I

jiofih 5y ago
I’ve never heard of USB-C causing a fire. The control ICs should cut the current the moment anything is out of spec. Do you have any examples of that?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mike_d 5y ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/7j3k38/anker_usbc_cable_warning_wife_woke_up_to_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/7j3k38/anker_usbc_... https://wccftech.com/macbook-survives-disables-all-usb-ports-to-prevent-damage-after-attached-usb-c-cable-started-to-smoke/ https://wccftech.com/macbook-survives-disables-all-usb-ports... Researchers even developed an exploit for some USB-C fast chargers that forces it to deliver max power and try to catch the connected device on fire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es2SqubYSfo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es2SqubYSfo
  - baybal2 5y ago
    The problem is the gazillion of proprietary fast charging standards. Some of them were designed for chargers with attached cable, and not disconnectable one. Many charger ICs emulate the fast charging signalling to trick phones into charging faster, but they of course have no way to check if wiring is ok on micro-usb. So you can end up with 5A-10A going over flimsy wires/contact pads. Or if they use type-c, they can end up using fake 5A cables. Or in case of VOOC, they don't check if the cable is an actual VOOC cable, which goes over 5A.

II2II 5y ago

> It should be impossible for any set of non-damaged, non-defective, spec-compliant set of USB-C cables and peripherals to cause fires. That is a fairly significant list of conditions. As an example, I have encountered significant heating in a damaged power cable on the original power supply of a laptop from a reputable vendor. It's easy to argue the owner should immediately replace the damaged power supply, yet many people will continue to use problematic hardware until it no longer functions. It is also the case that many companies will manufacture components down to a price (or, in the case of this vendor, for aesthetics) rather than make something that is robust. I find it a bit disconcerting that we're talking about delivering 240 W over a cable that consumers are unlikely to differentiate from a 15 W cable (i.e. USB-C specification) or even from a 2.5 W cable (e.g a USB cable they would have used fifteen years ago).

iainmerrick 5y ago
I find it a bit disconcerting that we're talking about delivering 240 W over a cable that consumers are unlikely to differentiate from a 15 W cable (i.e. USB-C specification) or even from a 2.5 W cable (e.g a USB cable they would have used fifteen years ago). Yes, exactly! It’s foolhardy. And maybe unnecessary -- haven’t Apple just shown that you can get amazing performance with very low power requirements? And shouldn’t we all be trying to minimize power usage, to try to reduce CO2 emissions, mining of rare and toxic elements, plastic waste, etc etc etc?
- lovemenot 5y ago
  What you say about efficiency is right, but it's complicated. There are many domestic devices on 110 / 220v AC using less than 250W. They are native DC, but source AC because they must. These devices are not likely to go away soon. In fact they'll proliferate so long as the developing world is still developing. We can also expect proliferation of domestic battery and solar: both DC sources. A standardised domestic micro-grid of DC sources and consuming devices could be a boon to efficiency and reduction of single-purpose conversion devices such as power bricks and inverters. As an example, every type of e-bicycle currently has a different proprietary adapter. Just as mobile phones once did. Most e-bikes charge at around 40v. With 250W USB available we will likely see a switch to USB by e-bile manufacturers, resulting in more common lower cost equipment and better interoperability.