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China creates more CO2 than the rest of the world combined. Destroying a company like this while giving China a free pass is essentially killing competition on

China creates more CO2 than the rest of the world combined. Destroying a company like this while giving China a free pass is essentially killing competition on China’s behalf. Also, there is no live experiment showing CO2 is the source of global warming. All the models are in silica and the IPCC has been hit with a major email breach showing major manipulation of the data to hide the decline of temperature data.

chriswarbo 5y ago
> China creates more CO2 than the rest of the world combined. I've never seen a murderer walk free by telling a judge "this other guy did more murders than me". > giving China a free pass What is this "free pass" of which you speak? > All the models are in silica Utter bollocks. Babbage never built his analytical engine, so I doubt Fourier, Foote and their contemporaries were using climate modelling software.
- ppf 5y ago
  >What is this "free pass" of which you speak? We gladly buy almost everything from China (lithium batteries, electronics, wind turbines, solar panels, all of which take a tremendous amount of energy to manufacture), without ever asking if they were made in a "CO2 neutral" way.
  - chriswarbo 5y ago
    Oops, sorry I forgot that there's no such thing as life-cycle assessment, amortised cost analysis, payback periods or any of the similar analyses performed every day by engineers, purchasers, operators, accountants, companies and governments. I guess they haven't been invented yet. Sounds like you've found a gap in the market; why not pitch it to YC?
    - ppf 5y ago
      Oddly enough, I don't see a "carbon-neutral" lifecycle assesment done for all the solar panels on the market. Or on an EV, discounting the ridiculous "carbon exchange" system.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    It's really not free... there is a tremendous cost to their population's health and their environment (air, water). It's shocking and tragic to see but their hospitals are full of children dealing with respiratory problems from pollution.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    If China did nothing but produce those things then we should praise China because all its CO2 emissions exist for the sake of reducing CO2 emissions. The real problem is that they also produce everything else.
    - ppf 5y ago
      Sure, except that rulings like the one in this article hinder western countries from being able to do the same (that is, manufacture their own solar panels and other energy-intensive "renewable" products).
ISL 5y ago
When the neighborhood is burning and your house, along with your neighbors', is on fire, it is reasonable to address your own fire, perhaps at the same time as extending support to others. There are plenty of reasons to believe that CO_2 is the major driver of global warming. It has been the leading proposed cause for decades and is generally consistent with known evidence.
- ppf 5y ago
  Every time we mandate that some product can't be produced in the West, China gladly fills the gap, burning huge amounts of brown coal in the process. Why do you think they have a global monopoly on solar cell and lithium battery production? They are incredibly energy-intensive processes. It would be like, in your analogy, somehow by putting out your own fire, someone else's house started burning.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    Or more like, you can put out your own fire by lighting several other houses on fire deliberately, and blaming them for the fires.
kaba0 5y ago
Have you looked at CO2 emitted per capita? Isn’t that a fairer metric? (I’m not saying that their emission is okay, but at least measure it per capita, and remember that the West likes to outsource the environmentally problematic parts of manufacturing to China, other parts of Asia)
amackera 5y ago
> China creates more CO2 than the rest of the world combined China emits about 30% of world-wide CO2 emissions, so less than the rest of the world combined.[1] > Also, there is no live experiment showing CO2 is the source of global warming. All the models are in silica and the IPCC has been hit with a major email breach showing major manipulation of the data to hide the decline of temperature data. This is typical FUD repeated ad nauseam by science deniers. The scientific consensus is that global warming is caused by human activity. -- 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
- zackees 5y ago
  China emits more CO2 than the rest of the *developed world combined. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/china-emits-more-rest-of-developed-world-combined https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/china-emits... There fixed it for you. China get's a free pass on all global warming initiatives while America get's deindustrialized and shift to china to simply escape the carbon regulations. So not only do we not fix global warming, we give as a gift to china industries critical to the survival of this country. The lack of outrage of this shows you that the media is complicit in this.
russli1993 5y ago
Since the industrial revolution, a human being's quality of life has vastly improved. Modern agriculture (harvesters, fertilizers, food processing), transportation(cars, planes, rail, ships), day to day goods (plastics, steel, concrete), medicine (chemicals), even clean water in a city, all of these are predicated on one thing, the use of energy. And more importantly, the price of energy, the cheaper the better. And given the technology that humanity could master in the past and present, the vast majority of affordable energy comes from fossil fuels (oil, natural gas, and coal). Hence, quality of life and wealth is also predicated on the use of energy and emission of co2. Given this context, if you look at the total amount of co2 emitted by a country throughout history, china is not the highest all, the western world is. And this emission has allowed the western world to gain great amount of wealth. Second, even today, china's co2 per captia is still lower than some western countries, for example, the US. China also produces a lot of world's industrial goods, like metal, chemicals, etc. In china, industrial electricity use accounts for 65% of the total electricity use. Of course, there could be inefficient use of energy in the industrial sectors, but increasingly, China's manufacturing is showing high levels of efficiency and the power efficiency is continue to improve. I am not saying these to be anti-west. In fact, I am pro west and critical of china on many things. But in terms of energy and co2 emission, I am advocating for analyzing the situation with objectivity. If you view people are equal regardless of race, ethnicity, nationality and beliefs, I hope you understand that people should also have equal access to energy, and in the past, equal rights to release co2. When most of Chinese people can't even have enough food on the table, and I think its fair to allow them to develop first. While rich and well off nations who can afford to invest and reduce co2 footprint should do so. I am not saying china should get a free pass. As China is becoming developed and people are being better off, it should be accountable to its co2 footprint too. And today we are doing that. We are working heavily to add clean sources of electricity(wind, solar, hydro, nuclear) and heavily promoting electrified transports (EVs, high speed trains, subways). We are implementing carbon trading system and that will have significant cost on co2 emission industries (oil gas, metal). Chinese government is actively shutting down or forcing upgrades emission and energy intensive companies and factories (steel, paper, textile, most recently bitcoin mining, and more). As you can imagine, there are a lot of PR backlash from the workers and business owners here, and the government is spending a lot of effort to minimize the push back and damage, for example, doing jobs transition program, re-training programs, compensations etc. We having been actively treating the ecosystem by 1) foresting, our forest coverage grew by a lot 2) fighting desertification, we actually reduced the desert area by reversing desertification. If you know what this takes, you know it's insanely difficult. 3) building water projects to increase water use efficiency, alleviate drought induced ecosystem collapse. For example, south to north water diversion project played a critical role in restoring wetlands and ground water in the water-lacking north. By planting trees and grass on 10s of thousands square kilometers of barren Loess Plateau and heavily managing agriculture on nearby banks, the yellow river is less yellow now because sediment is held in place and less is running off into the river. We have been doing all of these for the past 50 years. Special call out for treating deserts. Many people dedicated their lives to live nearby the desserts and planting grass and vegetation to reverse desertification. In the desert, there is nothing but sand and wind. The wind blew up the sand and they hit your face like knives. The wind also blew up anything you plant in it. Yet these people kept trying, kept experimenting with methods to treat the deserts. Today, they have found ways to do exactly that and the results speak for themselves. These people could have easily found something more comfortable to do, yet, they chose to do the hard thing. And they did it for decades. Try imagine that. Their dedication and selflessness is utterly mind blowing. Its amazing feet of human achievement. But these stories are never ever been told to the world, let alone celebrated, because its from China. We don't want to talk about anything positive about China right? We still have so much to do, all of our current efforts are of course not enough. But we know that, know our place, know the reality. Chinese government pledged peak carbon by 2030. Given all the current signs and activities, I think we are on the right track. I think we will continue to tackle this challenge, stepping harder on the gas peddle, and execute step by step. A steady, continuous, and unrelenting execution is ultimately what it takes to get anything done. I am a skeptic hopeful.

chriswarbo 5y ago

> China creates more CO2 than the rest of the world combined. I've never seen a murderer walk free by telling a judge "this other guy did more murders than me". > giving China a free pass What is this "free pass" of which you speak? > All the models are in silica Utter bollocks. Babbage never built his analytical engine, so I doubt Fourier, Foote and their contemporaries were using climate modelling software.

ppf 5y ago
>What is this "free pass" of which you speak? We gladly buy almost everything from China (lithium batteries, electronics, wind turbines, solar panels, all of which take a tremendous amount of energy to manufacture), without ever asking if they were made in a "CO2 neutral" way.
- chriswarbo 5y ago
  Oops, sorry I forgot that there's no such thing as life-cycle assessment, amortised cost analysis, payback periods or any of the similar analyses performed every day by engineers, purchasers, operators, accountants, companies and governments. I guess they haven't been invented yet. Sounds like you've found a gap in the market; why not pitch it to YC?
  - ppf 5y ago
    Oddly enough, I don't see a "carbon-neutral" lifecycle assesment done for all the solar panels on the market. Or on an EV, discounting the ridiculous "carbon exchange" system.
- rkk3 5y ago
  It's really not free... there is a tremendous cost to their population's health and their environment (air, water). It's shocking and tragic to see but their hospitals are full of children dealing with respiratory problems from pollution.
- imtringued 5y ago
  If China did nothing but produce those things then we should praise China because all its CO2 emissions exist for the sake of reducing CO2 emissions. The real problem is that they also produce everything else.
  - ppf 5y ago
    Sure, except that rulings like the one in this article hinder western countries from being able to do the same (that is, manufacture their own solar panels and other energy-intensive "renewable" products).

ISL 5y ago

When the neighborhood is burning and your house, along with your neighbors', is on fire, it is reasonable to address your own fire, perhaps at the same time as extending support to others. There are plenty of reasons to believe that CO_2 is the major driver of global warming. It has been the leading proposed cause for decades and is generally consistent with known evidence.

ppf 5y ago
Every time we mandate that some product can't be produced in the West, China gladly fills the gap, burning huge amounts of brown coal in the process. Why do you think they have a global monopoly on solar cell and lithium battery production? They are incredibly energy-intensive processes. It would be like, in your analogy, somehow by putting out your own fire, someone else's house started burning.
- kaba0 5y ago
  Or more like, you can put out your own fire by lighting several other houses on fire deliberately, and blaming them for the fires.

kaba0 5y ago

Have you looked at CO2 emitted per capita? Isn’t that a fairer metric? (I’m not saying that their emission is okay, but at least measure it per capita, and remember that the West likes to outsource the environmentally problematic parts of manufacturing to China, other parts of Asia)

amackera 5y ago

> China creates more CO2 than the rest of the world combined China emits about 30% of world-wide CO2 emissions, so less than the rest of the world combined.[1] > Also, there is no live experiment showing CO2 is the source of global warming. All the models are in silica and the IPCC has been hit with a major email breach showing major manipulation of the data to hide the decline of temperature data. This is typical FUD repeated ad nauseam by science deniers. The scientific consensus is that global warming is caused by human activity. -- 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

zackees 5y ago
China emits more CO2 than the rest of the *developed world combined. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/china-emits-more-rest-of-developed-world-combined https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/china-emits... There fixed it for you. China get's a free pass on all global warming initiatives while America get's deindustrialized and shift to china to simply escape the carbon regulations. So not only do we not fix global warming, we give as a gift to china industries critical to the survival of this country. The lack of outrage of this shows you that the media is complicit in this.

russli1993 5y ago

Since the industrial revolution, a human being's quality of life has vastly improved. Modern agriculture (harvesters, fertilizers, food processing), transportation(cars, planes, rail, ships), day to day goods (plastics, steel, concrete), medicine (chemicals), even clean water in a city, all of these are predicated on one thing, the use of energy. And more importantly, the price of energy, the cheaper the better. And given the technology that humanity could master in the past and present, the vast majority of affordable energy comes from fossil fuels (oil, natural gas, and coal). Hence, quality of life and wealth is also predicated on the use of energy and emission of co2. Given this context, if you look at the total amount of co2 emitted by a country throughout history, china is not the highest all, the western world is. And this emission has allowed the western world to gain great amount of wealth. Second, even today, china's co2 per captia is still lower than some western countries, for example, the US. China also produces a lot of world's industrial goods, like metal, chemicals, etc. In china, industrial electricity use accounts for 65% of the total electricity use. Of course, there could be inefficient use of energy in the industrial sectors, but increasingly, China's manufacturing is showing high levels of efficiency and the power efficiency is continue to improve. I am not saying these to be anti-west. In fact, I am pro west and critical of china on many things. But in terms of energy and co2 emission, I am advocating for analyzing the situation with objectivity. If you view people are equal regardless of race, ethnicity, nationality and beliefs, I hope you understand that people should also have equal access to energy, and in the past, equal rights to release co2. When most of Chinese people can't even have enough food on the table, and I think its fair to allow them to develop first. While rich and well off nations who can afford to invest and reduce co2 footprint should do so. I am not saying china should get a free pass. As China is becoming developed and people are being better off, it should be accountable to its co2 footprint too. And today we are doing that. We are working heavily to add clean sources of electricity(wind, solar, hydro, nuclear) and heavily promoting electrified transports (EVs, high speed trains, subways). We are implementing carbon trading system and that will have significant cost on co2 emission industries (oil gas, metal). Chinese government is actively shutting down or forcing upgrades emission and energy intensive companies and factories (steel, paper, textile, most recently bitcoin mining, and more). As you can imagine, there are a lot of PR backlash from the workers and business owners here, and the government is spending a lot of effort to minimize the push back and damage, for example, doing jobs transition program, re-training programs, compensations etc. We having been actively treating the ecosystem by 1) foresting, our forest coverage grew by a lot 2) fighting desertification, we actually reduced the desert area by reversing desertification. If you know what this takes, you know it's insanely difficult. 3) building water projects to increase water use efficiency, alleviate drought induced ecosystem collapse. For example, south to north water diversion project played a critical role in restoring wetlands and ground water in the water-lacking north. By planting trees and grass on 10s of thousands square kilometers of barren Loess Plateau and heavily managing agriculture on nearby banks, the yellow river is less yellow now because sediment is held in place and less is running off into the river. We have been doing all of these for the past 50 years. Special call out for treating deserts. Many people dedicated their lives to live nearby the desserts and planting grass and vegetation to reverse desertification. In the desert, there is nothing but sand and wind. The wind blew up the sand and they hit your face like knives. The wind also blew up anything you plant in it. Yet these people kept trying, kept experimenting with methods to treat the deserts. Today, they have found ways to do exactly that and the results speak for themselves. These people could have easily found something more comfortable to do, yet, they chose to do the hard thing. And they did it for decades. Try imagine that. Their dedication and selflessness is utterly mind blowing. Its amazing feet of human achievement. But these stories are never ever been told to the world, let alone celebrated, because its from China. We don't want to talk about anything positive about China right? We still have so much to do, all of our current efforts are of course not enough. But we know that, know our place, know the reality. Chinese government pledged peak carbon by 2030. Given all the current signs and activities, I think we are on the right track. I think we will continue to tackle this challenge, stepping harder on the gas peddle, and execute step by step. A steady, continuous, and unrelenting execution is ultimately what it takes to get anything done. I am a skeptic hopeful.