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"Ruling will only hold in the Netherlands". I can see Shell just exiting the Netherlands rather than lowering emissions by 45% globally. Another weak, symboli

"Ruling will only hold in the Netherlands". I can see Shell just exiting the Netherlands rather than lowering emissions by 45% globally. Another weak, symbolic ruling from a European court.

epistasis 5y ago
This is good! What else is a court supposed to do? If She'll exits the Netherlands than all the better for the Netherlands.
- kolbe 5y ago
  No, Shell is going to just take its thousands of high paying jobs from their headquarters to a more favorable regulatory regime. Very little else will change.
  - Isinlor 5y ago
    Hopefully we can force similar rulings in other countries and on the EU level. This ruling may be a precedent since it is partially based on the European law. The same could be attempted across the whole world where judicial branch holds actual power. https://www.urgenda.nl/en/themas/climate-case/global-climate-litigation/ https://www.urgenda.nl/en/themas/climate-case/global-climate... https://peoplesclimatecase.caneurope.org/ https://peoplesclimatecase.caneurope.org/ http://climatecasechart.com/non-us-climate-change-litigation/ http://climatecasechart.com/non-us-climate-change-litigation...
    - kolbe 5y ago
      There's a line in The Wire where an honest hard working security guard asks Marlo to not disrespect him by stealing in front of him. Marlo says, "you want it to be one way, but it's the other way," then Marlo kills him. You can downvote me all you want. You can "hope" to do whatever in your crusade. You can tell me all about what "could" happen if the world weren't the way is. But it's not that way. It's the other way.
      - epistasis 5y ago
        In this analogy, one might think that Shell is Marlo and society is the security guard, but the reality is that the roles are reversed. If Shell does not change their game, they will die. Global capital is coming to terms with this, though there are still a few executives in power at banks that don't realize it. Fossil fuel companies skate by because they have access to cheap loans right now. But as that dries up, so will their extraction of fossil fuels. This is happening far more quickly than most people realize, since most people aren't following that side of financial markets. Everything is shifting day by day.
        kolbe 5y ago
        That isn’t at all the analogy. Quit reducing this to a war on climate. The “way the world is” corporations are highly mobile, and they engage in regulatory arbitrage. If RDS’s home country wants to put an onerous requirement on them, they will leave to a country that won’t. If landing a tiny little punch on RDS in order to lose hundreds of millions (if not billions) of dollars in import revenue to their country, then sure, this is a win. But this won’t materially affect climate change. This won’t even materially affect RDS. It will materially affect the Dutch people who have come to depend on the economic benefits of having RDS headquartered in their town/country.
        epistasis 5y ago
        Not really sure how what you describe here relates to the story from The Wire. But in any case, this will materially affect climate change in as far as NL is going to be reducing their carbon footprint. It will materially affect climate change in that it will embolden further lawsuits, in other countries. It will materially benefit the Dutch people in that either Shell will switch away from fossil fuels to more economically efficient carbon free economic activity, or Shell will leave and the Dutch will have some other business take the place that it better suited to the future. Today, activist investors took over 2-3 seats on Exxon's board to push Exxon to a lower carbon future. Finance is already fleeing from exploration of new fossil fuel. Fossil fuel companies are taking out loans to pay dividends, to trick investors into thinking that nothing is wrong. Their stock prices are taking a nose dive. Shell, and all the oil majors, have a very short time period to change their ways, or they will be abandoned by investors as they have destroyed their future earnings potential, and acquire massive liability for their externalities.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    These are just little tremours before the eruption of public discontent once the reality of climate change sets in. Once we have 100 million refugees because half of bangladesh is underwater, it will get urgly and all the fuckerage will come back to haunt them.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      An increase in the defense budget will take care of the problem.
- cr1895 5y ago
  If Shell fully exits then their massive wind/hydrogen project probably won’t happen: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-shell-gasunie-hydrogen-idUSKCN20L1AV https://www.reuters.com/article/us-shell-gasunie-hydrogen-id...
  - epistasis 5y ago
    If Shell refuses to meet market needs, there's plenty of capital out there for others to do it. There's nothing that Shell offers that is unique, and we have all sorts of other options. (I say "we" even though I'm not in the Netherlands, but we in the US are just as independent as NL is.)
Lutger 5y ago
Hopefully other courts will follow. There's talk in France of making ecocide a crime against humanity, this judgement is also partly based on a humans rights arguments. I know we still enjoy our chocolate icecream with slave labour from African children and consume our tech gadgets built on the blood of an Uyghur genocide - but hey you got to start somewhere!

"Ruling will only hold in the Netherlands". I can see Shell just exiting the Netherlands rather than lowering emissions by 45% globally. Another weak, symbolic ruling from a European court.

epistasis 5y ago

This is good! What else is a court supposed to do? If She'll exits the Netherlands than all the better for the Netherlands.

kolbe 5y ago
No, Shell is going to just take its thousands of high paying jobs from their headquarters to a more favorable regulatory regime. Very little else will change.
- Isinlor 5y ago
  Hopefully we can force similar rulings in other countries and on the EU level. This ruling may be a precedent since it is partially based on the European law. The same could be attempted across the whole world where judicial branch holds actual power. https://www.urgenda.nl/en/themas/climate-case/global-climate-litigation/ https://www.urgenda.nl/en/themas/climate-case/global-climate... https://peoplesclimatecase.caneurope.org/ https://peoplesclimatecase.caneurope.org/ http://climatecasechart.com/non-us-climate-change-litigation/ http://climatecasechart.com/non-us-climate-change-litigation...
  - kolbe 5y ago
    There's a line in The Wire where an honest hard working security guard asks Marlo to not disrespect him by stealing in front of him. Marlo says, "you want it to be one way, but it's the other way," then Marlo kills him. You can downvote me all you want. You can "hope" to do whatever in your crusade. You can tell me all about what "could" happen if the world weren't the way is. But it's not that way. It's the other way.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      In this analogy, one might think that Shell is Marlo and society is the security guard, but the reality is that the roles are reversed. If Shell does not change their game, they will die. Global capital is coming to terms with this, though there are still a few executives in power at banks that don't realize it. Fossil fuel companies skate by because they have access to cheap loans right now. But as that dries up, so will their extraction of fossil fuels. This is happening far more quickly than most people realize, since most people aren't following that side of financial markets. Everything is shifting day by day.
      - kolbe 5y ago
        That isn’t at all the analogy. Quit reducing this to a war on climate. The “way the world is” corporations are highly mobile, and they engage in regulatory arbitrage. If RDS’s home country wants to put an onerous requirement on them, they will leave to a country that won’t. If landing a tiny little punch on RDS in order to lose hundreds of millions (if not billions) of dollars in import revenue to their country, then sure, this is a win. But this won’t materially affect climate change. This won’t even materially affect RDS. It will materially affect the Dutch people who have come to depend on the economic benefits of having RDS headquartered in their town/country.
        epistasis 5y ago
        Not really sure how what you describe here relates to the story from The Wire. But in any case, this will materially affect climate change in as far as NL is going to be reducing their carbon footprint. It will materially affect climate change in that it will embolden further lawsuits, in other countries. It will materially benefit the Dutch people in that either Shell will switch away from fossil fuels to more economically efficient carbon free economic activity, or Shell will leave and the Dutch will have some other business take the place that it better suited to the future. Today, activist investors took over 2-3 seats on Exxon's board to push Exxon to a lower carbon future. Finance is already fleeing from exploration of new fossil fuel. Fossil fuel companies are taking out loans to pay dividends, to trick investors into thinking that nothing is wrong. Their stock prices are taking a nose dive. Shell, and all the oil majors, have a very short time period to change their ways, or they will be abandoned by investors as they have destroyed their future earnings potential, and acquire massive liability for their externalities.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  These are just little tremours before the eruption of public discontent once the reality of climate change sets in. Once we have 100 million refugees because half of bangladesh is underwater, it will get urgly and all the fuckerage will come back to haunt them.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    An increase in the defense budget will take care of the problem.
cr1895 5y ago
If Shell fully exits then their massive wind/hydrogen project probably won’t happen: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-shell-gasunie-hydrogen-idUSKCN20L1AV https://www.reuters.com/article/us-shell-gasunie-hydrogen-id...
- epistasis 5y ago
  If Shell refuses to meet market needs, there's plenty of capital out there for others to do it. There's nothing that Shell offers that is unique, and we have all sorts of other options. (I say "we" even though I'm not in the Netherlands, but we in the US are just as independent as NL is.)

Lutger 5y ago

Hopefully other courts will follow. There's talk in France of making ecocide a crime against humanity, this judgement is also partly based on a humans rights arguments. I know we still enjoy our chocolate icecream with slave labour from African children and consume our tech gadgets built on the blood of an Uyghur genocide - but hey you got to start somewhere!