6 ms·

I agree with you on almost all points. The realism of the series was what I really liked about it. I stopped watching it though once the "protomolecule" stuff

I agree with you on almost all points. The realism of the series was what I really liked about it. I stopped watching it though once the "protomolecule" stuff started. What is backed by science about it?

gbrown_ 5y ago
That'll be the "fiction" part of the science fiction.
7sigma 5y ago
The protomolecule is pretty much super advanced tech from a civilisation that had a billion year or so headstart. For me, a big part of the show is about how technology changes us and the protomolecule is an extreme example of that. Its not backed up by science and thats not the point. The point is how humans react to it and how the story progresses after that is really great, one of the best series overall i've ever watched.
- XorNot 5y ago
  It's a Banks-style Outside Context Problem.
  - spacedcowboy 5y ago
    I miss Culture novels :(
    - ctoth 5y ago
      I do too! One of the great things though is they're very re-readable!
- rakoo 5y ago
  > a big part of the show is about how technology changes us I've always thought that movie/series genre are just a facade for the real genre: - Slasher movies are supposedly about the boogey man/monster killing protagonist, but it's really about how humans interact when put under stress and show their true color - (Heroic) Fantasy movies are supposedly about wizards and knights and witches, but it's really just a huge politics playground - Science fiction movies are supposedly about new technology/aliens/space stuff, but it's really about how something outside of our knowledge changes us, challenges our values, and reveals who we are. That's usually technology but can be anything. It's of course not just that, there are always exceptions, and I'm probably not the first one to have this view. But I think this is the reason I like almost anything sci-fi but can barely stand watching fantasy movies: I can't find myself to care about people fighting each other for a little bit more power.
rkachowski 5y ago
I had a similar feeling, I love the show but I still felt a grating annoyance anytime I heard the phrase "protomolecule". It makes it easier if you think of it as "proto" being short for Protogen - the corporation that discovered it.
- radley 5y ago
  Proto is latin for primitive and/or precursor. Protomolecule also sounds like something a scientist would come up with if they were trying to expand their research funding and had a fickle investor (i.e. Mao). So while protomolecule sound like something out of the Power Rangers, it's an oddly plausible term.
  - Tagbert 5y ago
    From Proteus, a Greek god of rivers and water known for changing his shape and nature to suite the situation. That description suites the Protomolecule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus
  - rkachowski 5y ago
    It could be plausible, but it still gives me "unobtainium" vibes.
Beltiras 5y ago
In my opinion they get one "pass". Science fiction is best when you have one thing changed in the world and ask the question "How does this world behave?". OK, so the Expanse changes 2 things. Constant acceleration is possible, protomolecule is a thing.
- Symmetry 5y ago
  Atomic rockets did some math on the Epstein drive and it's theoretically possible, though well outside known engineering. It's supposed to have an exhaust velocity of .036 c and the theoretical max for fusion drives is well above that. http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/engines.php#id--Exhaust_Velocity--Deuterium-tritium_fusion_rocket http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/engines.php#id-...
  - DennisP 5y ago
    Besides that I think most of the plot wouldn't be all that different with slower drives, there'd just be longer stretches of nothing happening and more spinning stuff.
- splatcollision 5y ago
  One of Philip K Dick's essays about Sci-fi mentions this as well, as a way to make a world that 'doesn't fall apart'... Search found me this: https://web.archive.org/web/20080125030037/http://deoxy.org/pkd_how2build.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20080125030037/http://deoxy.org/... and previous discussion! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500469
- thereddaikon 5y ago
  TVTropes calls this the One Big Lie, on their scales of Sci-Fi hardness. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScienceFictionHardness https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScien...
Symmetry 5y ago
When I tried reading the novels I had a problem there because I thought the books were putting forth explanations for it that didn't make sense. But the TV show didn't try to explain beyond something like "magic future technology" and I don't have any problem suspending disbelief for that.
api 5y ago
AFAIK nothing there violates known laws of physics or mathematics. Very far fetched? Yes. Impossible? Maybe, maybe not. Keep in mind that the protomolecule is apparently the work of alien intelligences considerably beyond our intellectual capacity and far older. That kind of thing doesn't bother me. I don't think a dog could even comprehend a wheel. Even within the same species, major advances can look like magic to earlier generations. A top-tier scientist from the 19th century may well have pronounced just about all of today's digital devices impossible science fiction. "Billions of calculations per second in something in your pocket that runs on a battery you can recharge?" Lots of stretches there for a scientist from 1820. There are still people (who are not stupid) who don't believe we went to the moon. Hard sci-fi just means a story that doesn't instantly fail undergrad physics and whose speculative physics are credible enough that a typical physicist won't roll their eyes. Wormholes and warp drive, for example, have not been conclusively ruled out. Most physicists doubt you could build them in the foreseeable future (or maybe ever), but nobody's shown a reason they would "break physics." Faster than light motion or reactionless drives that generate conventional momentum are however believed to be impossible. It leads to some counterintuitive stuff. Giant massive ships that silently hover in the sky without blowtorching whatever is beneath them are strongly believed to be less plausible than something superficially more far fetched like the Alcubierre Drive. That's because reactionless drives that create conventional momentum "break physics," while so far we have not been able to rule out altering space-time curvature. If I were writing a hard sci-fi story with an Alcubierre Drive in it, I'd still have the astronauts going up to their warp ship in chemical rockets. I'd also have my warp ship using chemical or ion propulsion to move around when not using its warp drive, and the thing would have to have massive heat sinks that would glow red hot when warp is powering up to discharge all the power plant's waste heat (second law of thermodynamics). Credible speculation in physics usually means that there exist mathematical solutions or models that suggest the possibility of something, but where we do not yet currently know if that math is "real" let alone "engineerable." There may also be things that are technically possible but that are so hard to do that they recede behind a kind of "probability horizon," becoming effectively impossible. An example might be a warp drive that requires so much energy and is so hard to build and control that the probability of someone doing it anywhere in the universe between now and heat death is near zero even if you assume that intelligent life is common.
dougmwne 5y ago
I was also put off by it, but it does end up going in a nice pseudo-hard scifi direction once you get to the end of season 3. It respects the physical limitations of human technology while providing a pretty neat what-if. I was also ok with the Epstein drive. It's a nice little plot enabler. "Yeah, space colonization is laughably implausible, but what if we had just this one piece of magic technology?"
- DennisP 5y ago
  Here's an argument that a drive with Epstein performance is actually doable: https://toughsf.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-expanses-epstein-drive.html https://toughsf.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-expanses-epstein-dr...
  - dougmwne 5y ago
    That's a fun read! I've heard of nuclear pulse propulsion, but never considered railgun fuel injected, laser-ignited, magnetically focused fusion a kilometer from the ship as a means of propulsion. Indeed that also looks like quite a weapon.
- mLuby 5y ago
  "The Juice" is also magic, but totally worth it to see high-G maneuvers.
fsloth 5y ago
The hard sci-fi background makes the protomolecule stuff quite good actually IMHO. Since they are not goofing off in basic things and they've done their homework, having space magic happen is much more entertaining than in e.g. Star Trek where basically everything is driven by plot-based technobabble so you really have no distinction between "standard technology" and "unfathomable space phenomena of the week". Some of the space magic driven by protomolecule later on is fairly thoughtfull IMO and meshes nicely with rest of the show. I would advice you to continue watching - the series gets constantly better and better.
evan_ 5y ago
> I stopped watching it though once the "protomolecule" stuff started. So, the first scene in the first episode? Before the opening credits? It would be one thing if they added the crazy alien magic plot device midway through a later season to get out of some writing hole they'd gotten themselves into, but they intentionally opened the first episode of the show (and the prologue of the first book) with a fleeting glimpse of what the protomolecule is capable of to set the stakes for the rest of the series.
thereddaikon 5y ago
The human stuff is hard sci-fi. The alien protomolecule is thoroughly in the realm of sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic. And I'm fine with that because of how its handled. The protomolecule is less of a technology itself and more or a narrative tool. How it works isn't important. What is important is that it is a disruptive force that changes the direction of humanity.
- Zimahl 5y ago
  It is 'magic' but a really interesting concept. It's essentially a self-replicating terraforming device. An ancient civilization sends out probes with the molecule - in this case a small planetoid - that will hopefully crash into a planet with biological material and then collect and convert said material into a ring that connects to an interstellar network. The problem is that the one in The Expanse got caught up in Jovian system, like gets done with a lot of interstellar objects.
  - thereddaikon 5y ago
    It's a variation on the Von Neumann probe. A self replicating spacecraft. Instead of being for exploration or production of a specific widget its purpose is building ftl gates as part of a presumably galactic network.
goatlover 5y ago
The protomolecule stuff drives the plot of the entire story. It's why the conflict happens, and how the characters end up in the middle of it, from the very first episode. And it keeps building on that all the way through the show and the books. The focus remains on humanity, but the alien stuff provides the motivation for the ongoing human response. Also, advanced alien tech in pretty much all science fiction follows Arthur C. Clarke's dictum about magic. Of course they're going to be able to do things humans don't understand. Do you really think we would be able to explain everything a billion+ year old civilization could do?
bityard 5y ago
The whole point of the entire series is that the protomolecule is an unknown quantity. They don't know (exactly) where it came from, how it works, what it's for. Only that it is extremely dangerous. And then plots are built around that. If they knew (and explained) how it worked, then all their problems would be solved and the show would end.

gbrown_ 5y ago

That'll be the "fiction" part of the science fiction.

7sigma 5y ago

The protomolecule is pretty much super advanced tech from a civilisation that had a billion year or so headstart. For me, a big part of the show is about how technology changes us and the protomolecule is an extreme example of that. Its not backed up by science and thats not the point. The point is how humans react to it and how the story progresses after that is really great, one of the best series overall i've ever watched.

XorNot 5y ago
It's a Banks-style Outside Context Problem.
- spacedcowboy 5y ago
  I miss Culture novels :(
  - ctoth 5y ago
    I do too! One of the great things though is they're very re-readable!
rakoo 5y ago
> a big part of the show is about how technology changes us I've always thought that movie/series genre are just a facade for the real genre: - Slasher movies are supposedly about the boogey man/monster killing protagonist, but it's really about how humans interact when put under stress and show their true color - (Heroic) Fantasy movies are supposedly about wizards and knights and witches, but it's really just a huge politics playground - Science fiction movies are supposedly about new technology/aliens/space stuff, but it's really about how something outside of our knowledge changes us, challenges our values, and reveals who we are. That's usually technology but can be anything. It's of course not just that, there are always exceptions, and I'm probably not the first one to have this view. But I think this is the reason I like almost anything sci-fi but can barely stand watching fantasy movies: I can't find myself to care about people fighting each other for a little bit more power.

rkachowski 5y ago

I had a similar feeling, I love the show but I still felt a grating annoyance anytime I heard the phrase "protomolecule". It makes it easier if you think of it as "proto" being short for Protogen - the corporation that discovered it.

radley 5y ago
Proto is latin for primitive and/or precursor. Protomolecule also sounds like something a scientist would come up with if they were trying to expand their research funding and had a fickle investor (i.e. Mao). So while protomolecule sound like something out of the Power Rangers, it's an oddly plausible term.
- Tagbert 5y ago
  From Proteus, a Greek god of rivers and water known for changing his shape and nature to suite the situation. That description suites the Protomolecule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus
- rkachowski 5y ago
  It could be plausible, but it still gives me "unobtainium" vibes.

Beltiras 5y ago

In my opinion they get one "pass". Science fiction is best when you have one thing changed in the world and ask the question "How does this world behave?". OK, so the Expanse changes 2 things. Constant acceleration is possible, protomolecule is a thing.

Symmetry 5y ago
Atomic rockets did some math on the Epstein drive and it's theoretically possible, though well outside known engineering. It's supposed to have an exhaust velocity of .036 c and the theoretical max for fusion drives is well above that. http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/engines.php#id--Exhaust_Velocity--Deuterium-tritium_fusion_rocket http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/engines.php#id-...
- DennisP 5y ago
  Besides that I think most of the plot wouldn't be all that different with slower drives, there'd just be longer stretches of nothing happening and more spinning stuff.
splatcollision 5y ago
One of Philip K Dick's essays about Sci-fi mentions this as well, as a way to make a world that 'doesn't fall apart'... Search found me this: https://web.archive.org/web/20080125030037/http://deoxy.org/pkd_how2build.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20080125030037/http://deoxy.org/... and previous discussion! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23500469
thereddaikon 5y ago
TVTropes calls this the One Big Lie, on their scales of Sci-Fi hardness. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScienceFictionHardness https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScien...

Symmetry 5y ago

When I tried reading the novels I had a problem there because I thought the books were putting forth explanations for it that didn't make sense. But the TV show didn't try to explain beyond something like "magic future technology" and I don't have any problem suspending disbelief for that.

api 5y ago

AFAIK nothing there violates known laws of physics or mathematics. Very far fetched? Yes. Impossible? Maybe, maybe not. Keep in mind that the protomolecule is apparently the work of alien intelligences considerably beyond our intellectual capacity and far older. That kind of thing doesn't bother me. I don't think a dog could even comprehend a wheel. Even within the same species, major advances can look like magic to earlier generations. A top-tier scientist from the 19th century may well have pronounced just about all of today's digital devices impossible science fiction. "Billions of calculations per second in something in your pocket that runs on a battery you can recharge?" Lots of stretches there for a scientist from 1820. There are still people (who are not stupid) who don't believe we went to the moon. Hard sci-fi just means a story that doesn't instantly fail undergrad physics and whose speculative physics are credible enough that a typical physicist won't roll their eyes. Wormholes and warp drive, for example, have not been conclusively ruled out. Most physicists doubt you could build them in the foreseeable future (or maybe ever), but nobody's shown a reason they would "break physics." Faster than light motion or reactionless drives that generate conventional momentum are however believed to be impossible. It leads to some counterintuitive stuff. Giant massive ships that silently hover in the sky without blowtorching whatever is beneath them are strongly believed to be less plausible than something superficially more far fetched like the Alcubierre Drive. That's because reactionless drives that create conventional momentum "break physics," while so far we have not been able to rule out altering space-time curvature. If I were writing a hard sci-fi story with an Alcubierre Drive in it, I'd still have the astronauts going up to their warp ship in chemical rockets. I'd also have my warp ship using chemical or ion propulsion to move around when not using its warp drive, and the thing would have to have massive heat sinks that would glow red hot when warp is powering up to discharge all the power plant's waste heat (second law of thermodynamics). Credible speculation in physics usually means that there exist mathematical solutions or models that suggest the possibility of something, but where we do not yet currently know if that math is "real" let alone "engineerable." There may also be things that are technically possible but that are so hard to do that they recede behind a kind of "probability horizon," becoming effectively impossible. An example might be a warp drive that requires so much energy and is so hard to build and control that the probability of someone doing it anywhere in the universe between now and heat death is near zero even if you assume that intelligent life is common.

dougmwne 5y ago

I was also put off by it, but it does end up going in a nice pseudo-hard scifi direction once you get to the end of season 3. It respects the physical limitations of human technology while providing a pretty neat what-if. I was also ok with the Epstein drive. It's a nice little plot enabler. "Yeah, space colonization is laughably implausible, but what if we had just this one piece of magic technology?"

DennisP 5y ago
Here's an argument that a drive with Epstein performance is actually doable: https://toughsf.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-expanses-epstein-drive.html https://toughsf.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-expanses-epstein-dr...
- dougmwne 5y ago
  That's a fun read! I've heard of nuclear pulse propulsion, but never considered railgun fuel injected, laser-ignited, magnetically focused fusion a kilometer from the ship as a means of propulsion. Indeed that also looks like quite a weapon.
mLuby 5y ago
"The Juice" is also magic, but totally worth it to see high-G maneuvers.

fsloth 5y ago

The hard sci-fi background makes the protomolecule stuff quite good actually IMHO. Since they are not goofing off in basic things and they've done their homework, having space magic happen is much more entertaining than in e.g. Star Trek where basically everything is driven by plot-based technobabble so you really have no distinction between "standard technology" and "unfathomable space phenomena of the week". Some of the space magic driven by protomolecule later on is fairly thoughtfull IMO and meshes nicely with rest of the show. I would advice you to continue watching - the series gets constantly better and better.

evan_ 5y ago

> I stopped watching it though once the "protomolecule" stuff started. So, the first scene in the first episode? Before the opening credits? It would be one thing if they added the crazy alien magic plot device midway through a later season to get out of some writing hole they'd gotten themselves into, but they intentionally opened the first episode of the show (and the prologue of the first book) with a fleeting glimpse of what the protomolecule is capable of to set the stakes for the rest of the series.

thereddaikon 5y ago

The human stuff is hard sci-fi. The alien protomolecule is thoroughly in the realm of sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic. And I'm fine with that because of how its handled. The protomolecule is less of a technology itself and more or a narrative tool. How it works isn't important. What is important is that it is a disruptive force that changes the direction of humanity.

Zimahl 5y ago
It is 'magic' but a really interesting concept. It's essentially a self-replicating terraforming device. An ancient civilization sends out probes with the molecule - in this case a small planetoid - that will hopefully crash into a planet with biological material and then collect and convert said material into a ring that connects to an interstellar network. The problem is that the one in The Expanse got caught up in Jovian system, like gets done with a lot of interstellar objects.
- thereddaikon 5y ago
  It's a variation on the Von Neumann probe. A self replicating spacecraft. Instead of being for exploration or production of a specific widget its purpose is building ftl gates as part of a presumably galactic network.

goatlover 5y ago

The protomolecule stuff drives the plot of the entire story. It's why the conflict happens, and how the characters end up in the middle of it, from the very first episode. And it keeps building on that all the way through the show and the books. The focus remains on humanity, but the alien stuff provides the motivation for the ongoing human response. Also, advanced alien tech in pretty much all science fiction follows Arthur C. Clarke's dictum about magic. Of course they're going to be able to do things humans don't understand. Do you really think we would be able to explain everything a billion+ year old civilization could do?

bityard 5y ago

The whole point of the entire series is that the protomolecule is an unknown quantity. They don't know (exactly) where it came from, how it works, what it's for. Only that it is extremely dangerous. And then plots are built around that. If they knew (and explained) how it worked, then all their problems would be solved and the show would end.