6 ms·

Having one USB-C dock powering your laptop (maybe with a hungry GPU), as well as a couple of monitors with everything through just usb-c cables is my hope, and

by croon 5y ago

Having one USB-C dock powering your laptop (maybe with a hungry GPU), as well as a couple of monitors with everything through just usb-c cables is my hope, and this is one step closer.

TeMPOraL 5y ago
At which point do we change assumptions about safety of USB cables though? Myself and most people I know always considered USB connection to be safe-ish - that is, you can keep the cable connected on the supply side, and have the receiver end just lie on the desk on the floor, and the worst that could possibly happen is some tiny sparking if the stray end touches something conductive in a very unlucky way. But the more power I see pushed through these cables, the more I start to look at them as live wires hooked to mains power. Additionally, such wattage sounds like a serious fire hazard if the cable is damaged, which means the cables themselves need to be handled with care. Something that wasn't the case with typical USB charging until recently.
- dijit 5y ago
  I mean, I share that worry, but isn’t the “-PD” part of “USB-PD” a negotiation step? I have very little worry that my carpet can accidentally negotiate 60w and up. I _am_ worried about cheap USB-PD devices that forgoe this negotiation as it is complex and expensive to implement.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    There's the cheap devices but even more worrisome are cheap, possibly not up-to-spec cables. If you buy a fake cable that pretends to have display-port alternate mode or something but doesn't, meh, you're out 10 bucks. But if it pretends to be able to carry 200 W but isn't and burns your house down instead, you might be out a tad bit more...
    - magicalhippo 5y ago
      Should be detectable though, at least in many circumstances. USB-PD has bidirectional communication, so at least in theory both ends could know how the cable is performing by comparing voltage and current measurements at either end. If the cable drops too many Watts, the load can be disconnected.
      - imtringued 5y ago
        Now you will run into WiFi type problems where your cable gives you different charge speeds depending on the season and time of day. Service will degrade and you may not notice the problem and may never figure it out in the end.
        magicalhippo 5y ago
        Beats burning down the house though... Also in case of laptops, mobiles etc, the device can report the error.
      - vladvasiliu 5y ago
        Is this actually a standard, or would that have to be implemented like some sort of "extension"? And if so, wouldn't that break down the "universal" nature of the beast? As in a Dell laptop won't be able to communicate with an HP power brick (unless said extension becomes at-least de-facto standard)? As I've commented elsewhere, I wonder if, at that point, there still is that much of a point in sticking with USB-C for what seem like fairly specific applications. I mean, if we're at the point of carting around such a monster of a laptop, will an additional, dedicated, power-only connector make that much of a difference? Don't get me wrong, I'm actually somewhat tempted by such a thing, but just because it would be easy no move around, not for actually carrying on my back all day every day.
        magicalhippo 5y ago
        It's not part of the current standard[1] as far as I can see. There are some mitigations though, like the cables must identify what they can handle (else the high current modes can't be used), and both ends needs to verify the plug and cable etc. In theory though I don't see why they couldn't include this in the standard. [1]: https://usb.org/document-library/usb-power-delivery https://usb.org/document-library/usb-power-delivery
  - leoc 5y ago
    > I _am_ worried about cheap USB-PD devices that forgoe this negotiation as it is complex and expensive to implement. Yes. Moving critical safety limits into software? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 Let's hope they're all up to the challenge ...
    - manmal 5y ago
      How would power negotiation be implemented without software?
  - szhu 5y ago
    Your carpet cannot negotiate a high power, but two devices might negotiate a high power while not being aware that that the cable has a cut in it and is in direct contact with the carpet.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - mardifoufs 5y ago
      Yeah that's the problem. I've had a bent usb c (from a pretty good brand) literally melt into my hands. I'm so glad I was using the phone at the time, I don't know what could've happened if I wasn't there. The dent seemed pretty "small" too, and it was way less damaged than a lot of lightning/micro USB cables I've seen and used in the past. What I don't understand is how the cable doesn't have a way to detect a short circuit. I'd imagine that a 250 watts capable cable would have more safety features hopefully though.
      - jsight 5y ago
        I don't think the non-USB-c cables have any more safety features to prevent that. I'd be surprised if the USB-C ones do.
        DebtDeflation 5y ago
        The original USB standard was 5V 0.5A, which wasn't going to start any fires.
        jsight 5y ago
        Oh, I realize that I left out important context. I didn't mean relative to other USB cables, but rather relative to other non-standard laptop power cables. This goal is to replace those high power cables, and those did not have significant safeties against damaged wire.
- DebtDeflation 5y ago
  >At which point do we change assumptions about safety of USB cables though? It's a good question. Generally speaking, DC is considered a shock hazard at or above 60V, but OSHA recognizes 50-60V as being potentially hazardous. It's certainly an arc hazard when disconnecting as the article notes. And 5A at just about any voltage will start a fire in case of a short circuit.
- zlsa 5y ago
  I'm not 100% sure, but I believe a USB-C cable connected to a USB-C charger is cold by default until something is connected. Don't try this at home either, but it should also be perfectly safe to plug a USB-C cable into two different wall chargers.
vladvasiliu 5y ago
Meh, I don't know. This seems a pretty niche usage. You'll need a specific USB-C dock to power such a laptop anyway, so why not go the route of the Apple thunderbolt displays, with a dedicated power connector run through the same sleeve as the data one. In practice, I find the loss of convenience compared to USB-C negligible. You still only have one cable hanging around. Plus, as those are PCs, said connector wouldn't even need to be something specific, I suppose a random (big enough) DC barrel plug would do and be compatible with different manufacturers' products.
shepherdjerred 5y ago
It's already possible. I have a 2019 Intel MacBook with AMD graphics. It connects to a CalDigit T3 Plus dock via one USB C thunderbolt cable. The dock connects to two 1440p 144hz monitors, a keyboard, speakers, webcam, USB microphone, and Ethernet. The dock powers the laptop over the thunderbolt cable. I also have an Intel desktop computer with a thunderbolt port. I'm able to switch from my desktop to my laptop with just one cable. It still has a few rough edges, but overall it works better than anything else I've tried.
kayodelycaon 5y ago
Already doing this with my 16" MacBook Pro using a 24" LG 4k display. Got a second (much cheaper) 24" 4K display, a couple of dongles, and an externally powered USB 3 plugged into the back of it. Paying $700 for a monitor was a bit painful but I have no regrets.
MR4D 5y ago
I had to reread your comment a few times, and then I figured out why it was so hard to parse: For me, my monitor powers my laptop. More specifically, my two 32" 4K monitors are plugged into the wall, and then both have USBC cables into each side of my 16" MBP (2019). I keep my MBP power cable in my suitcase for when I travel. I love the setup - only two cables on my desk, and there is a nice symmetry about it.
Tsiklon 5y ago
This is my reality today; My personal set up at home is completely centred around a Caldigit TS3+, to which I have connected ethernet to my local network switch, a keyboard, mouse, headphone amplifier + two monitors. Feeding the Caldigit dock I have a thunderbolt cable going to my laptop (a 2019 Macbook Pro) and i have a second thunderbolt cable run from my desktop (A HP Z4 with a thunderbolt card) which i can swap in at a moment's notice if I need more horsepower or want to play games etc. Thunderbolt for both computers enables a single cable setup. It really is super convenient

by croon 5y ago

Having one USB-C dock powering your laptop (maybe with a hungry GPU), as well as a couple of monitors with everything through just usb-c cables is my hope, and this is one step closer.

TeMPOraL 5y ago

At which point do we change assumptions about safety of USB cables though? Myself and most people I know always considered USB connection to be safe-ish - that is, you can keep the cable connected on the supply side, and have the receiver end just lie on the desk on the floor, and the worst that could possibly happen is some tiny sparking if the stray end touches something conductive in a very unlucky way. But the more power I see pushed through these cables, the more I start to look at them as live wires hooked to mains power. Additionally, such wattage sounds like a serious fire hazard if the cable is damaged, which means the cables themselves need to be handled with care. Something that wasn't the case with typical USB charging until recently.

dijit 5y ago
I mean, I share that worry, but isn’t the “-PD” part of “USB-PD” a negotiation step? I have very little worry that my carpet can accidentally negotiate 60w and up. I _am_ worried about cheap USB-PD devices that forgoe this negotiation as it is complex and expensive to implement.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  There's the cheap devices but even more worrisome are cheap, possibly not up-to-spec cables. If you buy a fake cable that pretends to have display-port alternate mode or something but doesn't, meh, you're out 10 bucks. But if it pretends to be able to carry 200 W but isn't and burns your house down instead, you might be out a tad bit more...
  - magicalhippo 5y ago
    Should be detectable though, at least in many circumstances. USB-PD has bidirectional communication, so at least in theory both ends could know how the cable is performing by comparing voltage and current measurements at either end. If the cable drops too many Watts, the load can be disconnected.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      Now you will run into WiFi type problems where your cable gives you different charge speeds depending on the season and time of day. Service will degrade and you may not notice the problem and may never figure it out in the end.
      - magicalhippo 5y ago
        Beats burning down the house though... Also in case of laptops, mobiles etc, the device can report the error.
    - vladvasiliu 5y ago
      Is this actually a standard, or would that have to be implemented like some sort of "extension"? And if so, wouldn't that break down the "universal" nature of the beast? As in a Dell laptop won't be able to communicate with an HP power brick (unless said extension becomes at-least de-facto standard)? As I've commented elsewhere, I wonder if, at that point, there still is that much of a point in sticking with USB-C for what seem like fairly specific applications. I mean, if we're at the point of carting around such a monster of a laptop, will an additional, dedicated, power-only connector make that much of a difference? Don't get me wrong, I'm actually somewhat tempted by such a thing, but just because it would be easy no move around, not for actually carrying on my back all day every day.
      - magicalhippo 5y ago
        It's not part of the current standard[1] as far as I can see. There are some mitigations though, like the cables must identify what they can handle (else the high current modes can't be used), and both ends needs to verify the plug and cable etc. In theory though I don't see why they couldn't include this in the standard. [1]: https://usb.org/document-library/usb-power-delivery https://usb.org/document-library/usb-power-delivery
- leoc 5y ago
  > I _am_ worried about cheap USB-PD devices that forgoe this negotiation as it is complex and expensive to implement. Yes. Moving critical safety limits into software? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 Let's hope they're all up to the challenge ...
  - manmal 5y ago
    How would power negotiation be implemented without software?
- szhu 5y ago
  Your carpet cannot negotiate a high power, but two devices might negotiate a high power while not being aware that that the cable has a cut in it and is in direct contact with the carpet.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - mardifoufs 5y ago
    Yeah that's the problem. I've had a bent usb c (from a pretty good brand) literally melt into my hands. I'm so glad I was using the phone at the time, I don't know what could've happened if I wasn't there. The dent seemed pretty "small" too, and it was way less damaged than a lot of lightning/micro USB cables I've seen and used in the past. What I don't understand is how the cable doesn't have a way to detect a short circuit. I'd imagine that a 250 watts capable cable would have more safety features hopefully though.
    - jsight 5y ago
      I don't think the non-USB-c cables have any more safety features to prevent that. I'd be surprised if the USB-C ones do.
      - DebtDeflation 5y ago
        The original USB standard was 5V 0.5A, which wasn't going to start any fires.
        jsight 5y ago
        Oh, I realize that I left out important context. I didn't mean relative to other USB cables, but rather relative to other non-standard laptop power cables. This goal is to replace those high power cables, and those did not have significant safeties against damaged wire.
DebtDeflation 5y ago
>At which point do we change assumptions about safety of USB cables though? It's a good question. Generally speaking, DC is considered a shock hazard at or above 60V, but OSHA recognizes 50-60V as being potentially hazardous. It's certainly an arc hazard when disconnecting as the article notes. And 5A at just about any voltage will start a fire in case of a short circuit.
zlsa 5y ago
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe a USB-C cable connected to a USB-C charger is cold by default until something is connected. Don't try this at home either, but it should also be perfectly safe to plug a USB-C cable into two different wall chargers.

vladvasiliu 5y ago

Meh, I don't know. This seems a pretty niche usage. You'll need a specific USB-C dock to power such a laptop anyway, so why not go the route of the Apple thunderbolt displays, with a dedicated power connector run through the same sleeve as the data one. In practice, I find the loss of convenience compared to USB-C negligible. You still only have one cable hanging around. Plus, as those are PCs, said connector wouldn't even need to be something specific, I suppose a random (big enough) DC barrel plug would do and be compatible with different manufacturers' products.

shepherdjerred 5y ago

It's already possible. I have a 2019 Intel MacBook with AMD graphics. It connects to a CalDigit T3 Plus dock via one USB C thunderbolt cable. The dock connects to two 1440p 144hz monitors, a keyboard, speakers, webcam, USB microphone, and Ethernet. The dock powers the laptop over the thunderbolt cable. I also have an Intel desktop computer with a thunderbolt port. I'm able to switch from my desktop to my laptop with just one cable. It still has a few rough edges, but overall it works better than anything else I've tried.

kayodelycaon 5y ago

Already doing this with my 16" MacBook Pro using a 24" LG 4k display. Got a second (much cheaper) 24" 4K display, a couple of dongles, and an externally powered USB 3 plugged into the back of it. Paying $700 for a monitor was a bit painful but I have no regrets.

MR4D 5y ago

I had to reread your comment a few times, and then I figured out why it was so hard to parse: For me, my monitor powers my laptop. More specifically, my two 32" 4K monitors are plugged into the wall, and then both have USBC cables into each side of my 16" MBP (2019). I keep my MBP power cable in my suitcase for when I travel. I love the setup - only two cables on my desk, and there is a nice symmetry about it.

Tsiklon 5y ago

This is my reality today; My personal set up at home is completely centred around a Caldigit TS3+, to which I have connected ethernet to my local network switch, a keyboard, mouse, headphone amplifier + two monitors. Feeding the Caldigit dock I have a thunderbolt cable going to my laptop (a 2019 Macbook Pro) and i have a second thunderbolt cable run from my desktop (A HP Z4 with a thunderbolt card) which i can swap in at a moment's notice if I need more horsepower or want to play games etc. Thunderbolt for both computers enables a single cable setup. It really is super convenient