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I always find it quite embarrassing when right-wing politicians here in Germany come up with this or that does not belong to Europe. In all cases this only show
by Archelaos 5y ago
I always find it quite embarrassing when right-wing politicians here in Germany come up with this or that does not belong to Europe. In all cases this only shows their geographical and historical ignorance. Kalmykia is a good example. Most of these politicians have never understood that Buddism has been part of Europe for centuries. My favorite example, however, is that they mostly do not know that we have had a permanent Muslim settlement in Europe since the Middle Ages, which is on the same latitude as Edinburgh and Copenhagen: the territory of the former Khanate of Kazan.[1]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanate_of_Kazan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanate_of_Kazan
- MomoXenosaga 5y agoDoes it matter? Germany is a secular state religion is irrelevant.
- hulitu 5y agoWell, it is not. The catolic church has a lot of economic and political power in Germany.
- publicola1990 5y agoMore than the Protestants?
- MomoXenosaga 5y agoYour religion has no impact on your citizenship or rights. It's what sets Europe apart and that's what should make right wing extremists proud not Christian heritage.
- oytis 5y agoNot quite. Church tax in one matter. Also Muslim women wearing headscarfs are discriminated in access to certain positions in government service e.g. at school, at courts etc. UPD And also we have Bavaria :)
- anoncake 5y agoMuslim headscarves are banned because we're a secular state and the state has to be neutral in religious matters. The Christian Democratic Union would never discriminate on the basis of religion. There is a cross in every classroom because the previous sentence was an obvious lie.
- rat87 5y agoThat's the opposite of neutrality True neutrality/freedom of religion would let people make personal choices about religous clothing. I'm not surprised that France has something so ridiculous but I'm somewhat disappointed that Germany would also fail to understand this
- anoncake 5y agoI think you misunderstood me. Of course it's the opposite of neutrality -- that's merely a fig leaf because Christianity isn't officially the state religion so conservative politicians cannot directly ban headscarves for being unchristian.
- rat87 5y agoI did misunderstand, thanks for clarifying it
- michael1999 5y agoThat is not my understanding. https://www.dw.com/en/the-opaque-financing-of-germanys-churches/a-17161371 https://www.dw.com/en/the-opaque-financing-of-germanys-churc...
- tomcooks 5y agoSeems to matter to said politicians, exclusively during PR campaigning.
- fogihujy 5y ago> this or that does not belong to Europe People who're upset about people abandoning old traditions in favour of imported ones should probably aim their ire at their own grandparents, for embracing U.S. and British rock'n'roll culture, rather than local traditions. It's not like the majority stopped going to church because someone else built a mosque. Also, we need to get history back as an major part of the curriculum - societies start doing dumb stuff when they forget their own past.
- febeling 5y agoTo call that bend on the Volga where Kazan is located Europe shows how much you need to stretch the facts to support that view. Citing Bosnia might have helped your point better, I guess.
- Tabular-Iceberg 5y agoI checked it out on a map, it looks like it's on this side of the Urals by a pretty good margin, so I don't see how it's at all a stretch.
- Grustaf 5y agoIf someone talks about “Europe” they are not referring to “anything west of the Urals”, they mean Germany, France etc, possibly Hungary, Slovakia etc or, if they are feeling generous, Ukraine and Belarus. It has never happened that two people were chatting about “European culture and values” and had the khanate of Kazan in mind.
- michael1999 5y agoIsn’t that exactly the point? There is a geographic Europe which is much larger and more diverse than NATO Europe, the EU, or Christian Europe like to admit.
- Grustaf 5y agoWhat is the point about that? Nobody is worried about "geographic Europe", people care about actual Europe, not some technical term. If someone is worried that Arab Muslims, or for that matter Arab Christians, will not assimilate into European culture and are incompatible with European values, how is it even remotely relevant that there is a tiny federal subject in what is technically European Russia where there's a lot of Muslims? Only someone entirely unfamiliar with Europe would think this makes any difference. If you want to talk about Islam, focus instead on Bosnia, in the heart of Europe. While definitely not without their issues, comparing Bosniaks and Assyrians show that culture is more relevant than religion when it comes to integration.
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y agoAll this is because humans prefer to generalize rather than be precise and this applies to both left and right. Right, because Islam is an old religion and has been a part of Europe (and other continents) for centuries; these native Muslim communities are in general well-integrated and have a rich history; they have nothing to do with ISIS-style extremism. There are peaceful Muslim communities often react immediately when a crime is committed in the name of their religion. Left, because "all cultures are equal" it's a convenient lie t with no connection to reality. There are toxic, terrible cultures where some members mutilate others, for example. Sometimes these atrocities are related to religion, sometimes not. Whether we allow some of these customs to take root in Western societies should be a matter of public debate, not a political decision that future generations will have to deal with.
- ainiriand 5y agoWhen you say that all cultures are equal is a lie, do you mean that there are cultures that are better than others? Maybe you mean that there are certain aspects of some cultures that are worth abandoning and some others worth preserving. Do you think there is nothing left to improve in Western culture?
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago> When you say that all cultures are equal is a lie, do you mean that there are cultures that are better than others? Maybe you mean that there are certain aspects of some cultures that are worth abandoning and some others worth preserving. Yes, I mean both. There are some cultures with a strong aspect of physical violence that is almost a defining factor (for the members of these groups). Taken together, these aspects sometimes far outweigh the positive ones. > Do you think there is nothing left to improve in Western culture? There is a lot to learn from. A bigger concern is that Western culture and related values are extremely invasive and try to dominate all other cultures so there is less and less of originality left with everything getting westernized. But we must not be afraid of criticizing these aspects of any culture that involve violence against others (this could be anyone - outsiders, other tribes, family members of given gender etc.).
- 5y ago
- Grustaf 5y agoKazan is a pretty weak argument for thinking Arab immigration into Northern Europe in the 2000s would go smoothly.
- intricatedetail 5y agoSome people love gatekeeping, on both left and right spectrum. Power is a drug and this gives them a kick.
- browningstreet 5y agoYeah, it's never about politicians' "ignorance" or lack of knowledge. That's irrelevant. It's about their assertion and what alignments it creates with their base. Constantly correcting these kind of assertions without addressing what they're doing just adds to the noise.
- ainiriand 5y agoIt is also worth noting that the Iberian peninsula where it is now Spain was an Arab region for 800 some years. The Spanish language is full of words with Arab roots and Arab culture is everywhere in Spain. It is funny to see the right wing politics trying to preserve this national Spanish heritage that they came up with.
- beaconstudios 5y agoAndalusia/Al-Andalus is probably not the best counter-example, as it became Islamic through an invasion. Also, much of Andalusia was actually Berber (from northern Africa) as well as Arabic.
- bpodgursky 5y agoI wouldn't say the Iberian peninsula was Arab. There was never a major population displacement; it was controlled by Arabs, but the population wasn't.
- bcatanzaro 5y agoBashkortostan is also part of Europe and very Muslim. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkortostan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkortostan Not to mention the Muslim Balkans. I bet there are many other examples.
- tomcooks 5y agoIf you want to have fun with right-wing politicians that blabber about "our Christian roots", just ask them how they feel about Christianity being a subset of Judaism.
- sattoshi 5y agoI think you got it the other way around. Christianity is Judaism + New Testament. Judaism is old testament.
- selimthegrim 5y agoTo say nothing of the Lipka Tatars
- Mediterraneo10 5y agoWhile Kalmyk Buddhism is geographically in Europe, it is in a very peripheral part of the continent with virtually no impact on European culture in general. So, it is still reasonable to claim that Buddhism is something foreign to Europe. After all, Buddhism only began to have a real impact culturally in the 19th century with translated literature coming from India and East Asia, not Kalmykia. With regard to Islam in geographical Europe, yes there is Tatarstan (and bits of adjacent regions), but Muscovy conquered that Muslim power in the mid 16th century and subsequently made it very clear that while Islam exists there, it is only at the mercy of Christian rulers. Historically, during the tsarist era Muslims were forbidden from trying to convert the Christian population. Perhaps a better example of "Muslims have been in Europe for a long time" (excepting Ottoman converts, as they are seen as forced conversions/uninvited guests/traitors by nationalist demagogues) would be those Tatars (same name as the Kazan Tatars but not closely related) who settled in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but again their impact on the surrounding culture was minuscule, and ultimately they assimilated into the Slavic-speaking Christian population.
- selimthegrim 5y agoThere are (Muslim) Lipka Tatars still in USA today, IIRC.
- nec4b 5y agoIt is also a bit embarrassing not being able to differentiate between Europe (as a geographical part of the eurasian contintent) and Europe (as region with common history and values, only a small geographical part of the continent). It is the same way when talking about America. One can assume from the context whether it is about the USA or the continent)