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> The prawnsalad farewell is probably the best evidence: As someone who uses IRC daily but has no part in the drama, why would the user's "prawnsalad" evidence

> The prawnsalad farewell is probably the best evidence: As someone who uses IRC daily but has no part in the drama, why would the user's "prawnsalad" evidence be trusted above others? I'm trusting nothing I read right now, but I'm happy to hear why you think some should be trusted over others.

jchw 5y ago
prawnsalad was a true neutral party that had no bad blood with either side, and a great contributor to IRC in general, as the leader of kiwiIRC and someone who contributes to IRCv3. On the other hand, who are you? edit: Perhaps it is wrong of me to assume you are immediately discarding this evidence based on the message and thus my derisive tone is unwarranted here, but when I originally read your message the way it came off to me was "We're all moving to Libera.chat, and I really don't want to have to hear any dissent that maybe neither party should be trusted, so I'm just going to throw out suspicions without reading this." It's not like I personally know prawnsalad, but I am kind of flustered by this response because it feels so dismissive when it's clear many were happy to trust the Libera.chat owners at face value despite everything. edit 2: I would feel too dishonest changing the wording after the fact but I apologize for the rudeness.
- capableweb 5y ago
  I'm trusting neither Libera nor Freenode at this point. Libera I won't trust because it was launched and Freenode because they are currently actively silencing discussions. That's what I meant with "I'm trusting nothing I read right now". I'm currently at the stage of reaching some semi-informed decision but I haven't yet, so your additional piece of information is very welcome, thanks :)
  - pferde 5y ago
    Yes, both networks are starting with metaphorical trustworthiness level at zero. Libera, however, has a lot of implicit trust and goodwill because it is run by all the people who have been successfully running Freenode for all these years. These people have had a lot of time to screw users over for whatever reason, but have proven themselves to be honorable. Freenode, on the other hand, is right now accruing "negative goodwill" by the bushels almost every day, thanks to its heavy-handed actions and communication. Time will tell, I guess, but the optics are looking pretty one-sided, in my opinion.
    - sampo 5y ago
      > it is run by all the people who have been successfully running Freenode for all these years Not all: 2006-2021 head of staff, Dahlskjaer, resigned in February 2021. Some sources maybe hint that there was some drama involved.
      - account42 5y ago
        The same head of staff that sold Freenode. So there being drama does in anyway hint at the libera staff being untrustworthy.
      - wearywanderer 5y ago
        Dahlskjaer not being involved makes Libera more trustworthy, not less. They are the one who precipitated this entire mess.
      - pferde 5y ago
        Fair enough, my wording was incorrect, and you are technically correct (the best kind of correct). :) What I should have said is "All of the people currently running Libera have been successfully running Freenode for all these years."
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tw04 5y ago
  Neutral party? KiwiIRC is "sponsored" by LTM - the company that acquired freenode. I'm not sure how you can call someone "neutral" that is being paid by one of the parties in question... https://kiwiirc.com/blog/Kiwi_IRC_gets_sponsored_by_PrivateInternetAccess https://kiwiirc.com/blog/Kiwi_IRC_gets_sponsored_by_PrivateI...
  - jchw 5y ago
    Neutral because they were friendly with both parties rather than one or neither. If it were neither, they would probably not have such relevant commentary. And that aside, while I see your point regarding how this impacts someone being entirely neutral, I think it’s fair to say two things: - While being sponsored or employed by a given entity calls your neutrality into question, I think it’s simply unfair to categorize it as an erasure of one’s ability to be a neutral party, absent any evidence. - Simultaneously leaving your positions while releasing a statement is probably a good sign that you are not too concerned about the bridges you may be burning. There is no incentive to besmirch both Freenode and Libera.chat leadership simultaneously, from the standpoint of someone not acting neutrally. Again, at least absent some evidence. My takeaway is that while I understand why people are taking a stance on libera.chat vs Freenode, I think there is now ample evidence that it’s time to disperse from either. There are plenty of IRC networks still around that have not burned their reputation to the ground. Again, I get why libera.chat is trusted as the “former” Freenode operators. But the bigger picture is that ego ran over both sides and lead to a far more bitter conflict than necessary, over what was at the time very minor details. Were Libera.chat staff correct? At this point it does look like the Freenode owner is at least making some amateur mistakes even if we assume best intent. So maybe. But I have no idea why the split had to be this bitter. To me it feels like the hostile takeover rhetoric represents dishonesty. Making a big stink because you want to win a petty war, to create a moral imperative to leave the existing network. Given that it succeeded, they are clearly in the more favorable position. But to me, I’m eyeing other networks like OFTC. This doesn’t pass the smell test for me.
    - ddingus 5y ago
      The forming of a business entity post fact has a lot to do with how bitter this event is.
- wearywanderer 5y ago
  KiwiIRC? Even if I were to ignore the association with LTM, why should or would I give a damn about the opinions of the author of a client I have never and will never use? Also, claiming neutrality (or worse, friendship) with a party that has now hijacked hundreds of channels from FOSS projects is not a good look, to put it very mildly.
jfrunyon 5y ago
Because prawnsalad basically says to do what you're doing: not trust anyone. ;)
threatofrain 5y ago
He’s a known community figure, develops important IRC software, and says he is Friends with the two parties in question, and the parties do not dispute the Continued friendship despite the drama.

jchw 5y ago

prawnsalad was a true neutral party that had no bad blood with either side, and a great contributor to IRC in general, as the leader of kiwiIRC and someone who contributes to IRCv3. On the other hand, who are you? edit: Perhaps it is wrong of me to assume you are immediately discarding this evidence based on the message and thus my derisive tone is unwarranted here, but when I originally read your message the way it came off to me was "We're all moving to Libera.chat, and I really don't want to have to hear any dissent that maybe neither party should be trusted, so I'm just going to throw out suspicions without reading this." It's not like I personally know prawnsalad, but I am kind of flustered by this response because it feels so dismissive when it's clear many were happy to trust the Libera.chat owners at face value despite everything. edit 2: I would feel too dishonest changing the wording after the fact but I apologize for the rudeness.

capableweb 5y ago
I'm trusting neither Libera nor Freenode at this point. Libera I won't trust because it was launched and Freenode because they are currently actively silencing discussions. That's what I meant with "I'm trusting nothing I read right now". I'm currently at the stage of reaching some semi-informed decision but I haven't yet, so your additional piece of information is very welcome, thanks :)
- pferde 5y ago
  Yes, both networks are starting with metaphorical trustworthiness level at zero. Libera, however, has a lot of implicit trust and goodwill because it is run by all the people who have been successfully running Freenode for all these years. These people have had a lot of time to screw users over for whatever reason, but have proven themselves to be honorable. Freenode, on the other hand, is right now accruing "negative goodwill" by the bushels almost every day, thanks to its heavy-handed actions and communication. Time will tell, I guess, but the optics are looking pretty one-sided, in my opinion.
  - sampo 5y ago
    > it is run by all the people who have been successfully running Freenode for all these years Not all: 2006-2021 head of staff, Dahlskjaer, resigned in February 2021. Some sources maybe hint that there was some drama involved.
    - account42 5y ago
      The same head of staff that sold Freenode. So there being drama does in anyway hint at the libera staff being untrustworthy.
    - wearywanderer 5y ago
      Dahlskjaer not being involved makes Libera more trustworthy, not less. They are the one who precipitated this entire mess.
    - pferde 5y ago
      Fair enough, my wording was incorrect, and you are technically correct (the best kind of correct). :) What I should have said is "All of the people currently running Libera have been successfully running Freenode for all these years."
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tw04 5y ago
Neutral party? KiwiIRC is "sponsored" by LTM - the company that acquired freenode. I'm not sure how you can call someone "neutral" that is being paid by one of the parties in question... https://kiwiirc.com/blog/Kiwi_IRC_gets_sponsored_by_PrivateInternetAccess https://kiwiirc.com/blog/Kiwi_IRC_gets_sponsored_by_PrivateI...
- jchw 5y ago
  Neutral because they were friendly with both parties rather than one or neither. If it were neither, they would probably not have such relevant commentary. And that aside, while I see your point regarding how this impacts someone being entirely neutral, I think it’s fair to say two things: - While being sponsored or employed by a given entity calls your neutrality into question, I think it’s simply unfair to categorize it as an erasure of one’s ability to be a neutral party, absent any evidence. - Simultaneously leaving your positions while releasing a statement is probably a good sign that you are not too concerned about the bridges you may be burning. There is no incentive to besmirch both Freenode and Libera.chat leadership simultaneously, from the standpoint of someone not acting neutrally. Again, at least absent some evidence. My takeaway is that while I understand why people are taking a stance on libera.chat vs Freenode, I think there is now ample evidence that it’s time to disperse from either. There are plenty of IRC networks still around that have not burned their reputation to the ground. Again, I get why libera.chat is trusted as the “former” Freenode operators. But the bigger picture is that ego ran over both sides and lead to a far more bitter conflict than necessary, over what was at the time very minor details. Were Libera.chat staff correct? At this point it does look like the Freenode owner is at least making some amateur mistakes even if we assume best intent. So maybe. But I have no idea why the split had to be this bitter. To me it feels like the hostile takeover rhetoric represents dishonesty. Making a big stink because you want to win a petty war, to create a moral imperative to leave the existing network. Given that it succeeded, they are clearly in the more favorable position. But to me, I’m eyeing other networks like OFTC. This doesn’t pass the smell test for me.
  - ddingus 5y ago
    The forming of a business entity post fact has a lot to do with how bitter this event is.
wearywanderer 5y ago
KiwiIRC? Even if I were to ignore the association with LTM, why should or would I give a damn about the opinions of the author of a client I have never and will never use? Also, claiming neutrality (or worse, friendship) with a party that has now hijacked hundreds of channels from FOSS projects is not a good look, to put it very mildly.

jfrunyon 5y ago

Because prawnsalad basically says to do what you're doing: not trust anyone. ;)

threatofrain 5y ago

He’s a known community figure, develops important IRC software, and says he is Friends with the two parties in question, and the parties do not dispute the Continued friendship despite the drama.