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I fail to see a reason why freenode would prefer that you transition away smoothly? Going cold turkey means a chance of leaving someone behind on freenode. Edi

I fail to see a reason why freenode would prefer that you transition away smoothly? Going cold turkey means a chance of leaving someone behind on freenode. Edit: I see that I have not expressed my point clearly. Freenode knows that it is dying already. Allowing a smooth transition wouldn't stop that or heal that. A downwards trajectory. Like a dictator usurping the throne, the new management wants to gulag everyone who even slightly disagrees to not leave any dissenting voices on the network. This way those who stay might stay for good, instead of only for the smooth transition.

capableweb 5y ago
Realistically, most channels are moving to Libera and the people are remaining are people who haven't noticed yet. Going cold turkey will just give those people a WTF feeling without being able to do anything about it, and eventually they'll also leave since everyone else left.
- J-Kuhn 5y ago
  Not to mention that the stuff is on top of hackernewes - anyone idling / currently on vacation / in coma can quickly figure out what is going on.
elaus 5y ago
One reason could be to not destroy any goodwill that was left by some members. Hijacking channels sends a clear signal that Freenode can't be trusted to provide a stable and secure network.
q3k 5y ago
> I fail to see a reason why freenode would prefer that you transition away smoothly? Because that transition window (which was planned for O(weeks)) could've been enough time to win back our trust and make us decide to stay on Freenode. I was honestly starting to think maybe we had too much of a knee-jerk reaction with the decision move and was willing to reconsider, but now, well.
- thinkloop 5y ago
  I'm not up to speed, could you expand on what happened?
  - gerikson 5y ago
    Here's a summary of the situation up until about 8 hours ago https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-by-the-crown-prince-of-korea/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-bee... 8 hours ago, around 700+ single-hash channels were assigned to a placeholder account, redirected to double-hash "offtopic" channels, and their topics locked. Ops were removed too. The trigger for this seems to have been the string "libera" in their topics.
    - NullPrefix 5y ago
      Global Liberation Army will never recover from the Scunthorpe attack.
  - bovermyer 5y ago
    See these links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27208422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27208422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207734
  - masklinn 5y ago
    Freenode was “acquired” a while back, people were looking on it dubiously. Then last week (or the week before) volunteer staff resigned en masse saying that the new owners were planning on taking control of the project’s direction. A number of projects using freenode for chat started looking at alternative just in case. As GP notes, this looking around was done in the heat of all the resignation, but was not necessarily a done deal for all projects, after all nothing has changed yet. Today, freenode highjacked / locked hundreds of channels mentioning libera (the alternative network set up by some of the resigning staff) out of nowhere, proving that the network most definitely could not be trusted anymore.
croon 5y ago
> I fail to see a reason why freenode would prefer that you transition away smoothly? Retaining any user at all on the network? I haven't used Freenode in a long time, but I would absolutely under no circumstances establish a channel there now. Not for some grand principled moral standpoint, but simply for not knowing if I'd get to keep it.
- immibis 5y ago
  Ah, but you retain more users if you prevent the users from seeing that anything is going wrong!
  - eli 5y ago
    How’s that working out for them?
  - croon 5y ago
    And they'd have gotten away with it too if it weren't for that pesky internet!
  - imtringued 5y ago
    What if this is a sneaky way to recruit non IRC users to a new network? I'm saying this because I want to try it out.
    - tartoran 5y ago
      Towards what goal? Most already useful stuff is going to libera but that may not be useful to you. What type of new community do you envision being born there?
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      This is a key point. People forget that IRC works like any other product: at the end of the day, someone "owns" the customer (in the sense of having the strongest relationship with them). In this case, it's pretty clear it isn't freenode. The actual relationship is owned by the OSS projects and their teams. If they kill the freenode link as an official channel, people shrug and use the new link. The entire calculus on freenode's side seems to be stuck in the 1990s.
jeltz 5y ago
To keep any form of goodwill. I personally did not care for this IRC drama (since I have not done enough research to take any side) but now I do. Now I will never join a community at Freenode. I do not want to use a server ran by immature jerks who hijack communities as retaliation. They are under no obligations to keep running it but then just shut down the server instead of acting like dicks.
mumblemumble 5y ago
Gulag is a poor analogy. Freenode can't imprison people or force them to stay on their service. Nor can it control the spread of information and opinions. Lee might own Freenode, but he doesn't own the front page of Hacker News. In terms of effectiveness, this is perhaps more analogous to the boss screaming, "You can't quit, because I just fired you!" It doesn't keep anyone from leaving, but it does create unnecessary drama and make them look bad. On the other hand, if Freenode had done nothing, it wouldn't have stopped some communities from leaving, but the flow might have abated all by itself. Like my mom used to say, "It won't heal if you don't stop picking at it."
ImPostingOnHN 5y ago
>I fail to see a reason why freenode would prefer that you transition away smoothly? The actions here are of an abuser seeing their partner is considering leaving, beating them harder as a result, locking them out of the house, then using their victim's devices to contact the victim's friends and tell them that everything is actually alright and the victim has decided to stay. Consider the argument, "I fail to see why a domestic abuser would prefer that their victim leave smoothly?"
danaris 5y ago
> Freenode knows that it is dying already. This is a highly charitable reading of the situation, and in fact, Lee has put out a post claiming (more or less) that he's trying to do all this for the FOSS community. From where I sit, it's abundantly clear that Lee thought he'd be able to come in and "own" the IRC network that hosts the plurality of FOSS projects' chat communities, and when they all started leaving, he lashed out and tried to stop them in the classic way an ego-driven control freak does: by imposing draconian restrictions, punishing those who dare to defy him.

capableweb 5y ago

Realistically, most channels are moving to Libera and the people are remaining are people who haven't noticed yet. Going cold turkey will just give those people a WTF feeling without being able to do anything about it, and eventually they'll also leave since everyone else left.

J-Kuhn 5y ago
Not to mention that the stuff is on top of hackernewes - anyone idling / currently on vacation / in coma can quickly figure out what is going on.

elaus 5y ago

One reason could be to not destroy any goodwill that was left by some members. Hijacking channels sends a clear signal that Freenode can't be trusted to provide a stable and secure network.

q3k 5y ago

> I fail to see a reason why freenode would prefer that you transition away smoothly? Because that transition window (which was planned for O(weeks)) could've been enough time to win back our trust and make us decide to stay on Freenode. I was honestly starting to think maybe we had too much of a knee-jerk reaction with the decision move and was willing to reconsider, but now, well.

thinkloop 5y ago
I'm not up to speed, could you expand on what happened?
- gerikson 5y ago
  Here's a summary of the situation up until about 8 hours ago https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-been-taken-over-by-the-crown-prince-of-korea/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-bee... 8 hours ago, around 700+ single-hash channels were assigned to a placeholder account, redirected to double-hash "offtopic" channels, and their topics locked. Ops were removed too. The trigger for this seems to have been the string "libera" in their topics.
  - NullPrefix 5y ago
    Global Liberation Army will never recover from the Scunthorpe attack.
- bovermyer 5y ago
  See these links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27208422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27208422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207734
- masklinn 5y ago
  Freenode was “acquired” a while back, people were looking on it dubiously. Then last week (or the week before) volunteer staff resigned en masse saying that the new owners were planning on taking control of the project’s direction. A number of projects using freenode for chat started looking at alternative just in case. As GP notes, this looking around was done in the heat of all the resignation, but was not necessarily a done deal for all projects, after all nothing has changed yet. Today, freenode highjacked / locked hundreds of channels mentioning libera (the alternative network set up by some of the resigning staff) out of nowhere, proving that the network most definitely could not be trusted anymore.

croon 5y ago

> I fail to see a reason why freenode would prefer that you transition away smoothly? Retaining any user at all on the network? I haven't used Freenode in a long time, but I would absolutely under no circumstances establish a channel there now. Not for some grand principled moral standpoint, but simply for not knowing if I'd get to keep it.

immibis 5y ago
Ah, but you retain more users if you prevent the users from seeing that anything is going wrong!
- eli 5y ago
  How’s that working out for them?
- croon 5y ago
  And they'd have gotten away with it too if it weren't for that pesky internet!
- imtringued 5y ago
  What if this is a sneaky way to recruit non IRC users to a new network? I'm saying this because I want to try it out.
  - tartoran 5y ago
    Towards what goal? Most already useful stuff is going to libera but that may not be useful to you. What type of new community do you envision being born there?
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    This is a key point. People forget that IRC works like any other product: at the end of the day, someone "owns" the customer (in the sense of having the strongest relationship with them). In this case, it's pretty clear it isn't freenode. The actual relationship is owned by the OSS projects and their teams. If they kill the freenode link as an official channel, people shrug and use the new link. The entire calculus on freenode's side seems to be stuck in the 1990s.

jeltz 5y ago

To keep any form of goodwill. I personally did not care for this IRC drama (since I have not done enough research to take any side) but now I do. Now I will never join a community at Freenode. I do not want to use a server ran by immature jerks who hijack communities as retaliation. They are under no obligations to keep running it but then just shut down the server instead of acting like dicks.

mumblemumble 5y ago

Gulag is a poor analogy. Freenode can't imprison people or force them to stay on their service. Nor can it control the spread of information and opinions. Lee might own Freenode, but he doesn't own the front page of Hacker News. In terms of effectiveness, this is perhaps more analogous to the boss screaming, "You can't quit, because I just fired you!" It doesn't keep anyone from leaving, but it does create unnecessary drama and make them look bad. On the other hand, if Freenode had done nothing, it wouldn't have stopped some communities from leaving, but the flow might have abated all by itself. Like my mom used to say, "It won't heal if you don't stop picking at it."

ImPostingOnHN 5y ago

>I fail to see a reason why freenode would prefer that you transition away smoothly? The actions here are of an abuser seeing their partner is considering leaving, beating them harder as a result, locking them out of the house, then using their victim's devices to contact the victim's friends and tell them that everything is actually alright and the victim has decided to stay. Consider the argument, "I fail to see why a domestic abuser would prefer that their victim leave smoothly?"

danaris 5y ago

> Freenode knows that it is dying already. This is a highly charitable reading of the situation, and in fact, Lee has put out a post claiming (more or less) that he's trying to do all this for the FOSS community. From where I sit, it's abundantly clear that Lee thought he'd be able to come in and "own" the IRC network that hosts the plurality of FOSS projects' chat communities, and when they all started leaving, he lashed out and tried to stop them in the classic way an ego-driven control freak does: by imposing draconian restrictions, punishing those who dare to defy him.