5 ms·

Honestly, this is kind of a blessing in disguise. Before there was ambiguity between where to go, what had legitimacy or continuity of service issues for certai

by Fordec 5y ago

Honestly, this is kind of a blessing in disguise. Before there was ambiguity between where to go, what had legitimacy or continuity of service issues for certain channels weighing up switching costs. This sort of stuff puts a line under things. Move voluntarily in a rush or move chaoticly under duress when your channel gets hijacked without notice.

jchw 5y ago
I think it’s unambiguous: neither. Libera.chat hasn’t done something this boneheaded, but given how this all went down we should simply not be supporting these networks. The prawnsalad farewell is probably the best evidence: https://gist.github.com/prawnsalad/4ca20da6c2295ddb06c1646791c61953 https://gist.github.com/prawnsalad/4ca20da6c2295ddb06c164679...
- capableweb 5y ago
  > The prawnsalad farewell is probably the best evidence: As someone who uses IRC daily but has no part in the drama, why would the user's "prawnsalad" evidence be trusted above others? I'm trusting nothing I read right now, but I'm happy to hear why you think some should be trusted over others.
  - jchw 5y ago
    prawnsalad was a true neutral party that had no bad blood with either side, and a great contributor to IRC in general, as the leader of kiwiIRC and someone who contributes to IRCv3. On the other hand, who are you? edit: Perhaps it is wrong of me to assume you are immediately discarding this evidence based on the message and thus my derisive tone is unwarranted here, but when I originally read your message the way it came off to me was "We're all moving to Libera.chat, and I really don't want to have to hear any dissent that maybe neither party should be trusted, so I'm just going to throw out suspicions without reading this." It's not like I personally know prawnsalad, but I am kind of flustered by this response because it feels so dismissive when it's clear many were happy to trust the Libera.chat owners at face value despite everything. edit 2: I would feel too dishonest changing the wording after the fact but I apologize for the rudeness.
    - capableweb 5y ago
      I'm trusting neither Libera nor Freenode at this point. Libera I won't trust because it was launched and Freenode because they are currently actively silencing discussions. That's what I meant with "I'm trusting nothing I read right now". I'm currently at the stage of reaching some semi-informed decision but I haven't yet, so your additional piece of information is very welcome, thanks :)
      - pferde 5y ago
        Yes, both networks are starting with metaphorical trustworthiness level at zero. Libera, however, has a lot of implicit trust and goodwill because it is run by all the people who have been successfully running Freenode for all these years. These people have had a lot of time to screw users over for whatever reason, but have proven themselves to be honorable. Freenode, on the other hand, is right now accruing "negative goodwill" by the bushels almost every day, thanks to its heavy-handed actions and communication. Time will tell, I guess, but the optics are looking pretty one-sided, in my opinion.
        sampo 5y ago
        > it is run by all the people who have been successfully running Freenode for all these years Not all: 2006-2021 head of staff, Dahlskjaer, resigned in February 2021. Some sources maybe hint that there was some drama involved.
        account42 5y ago
        The same head of staff that sold Freenode. So there being drama does in anyway hint at the libera staff being untrustworthy.
        wearywanderer 5y ago
        Dahlskjaer not being involved makes Libera more trustworthy, not less. They are the one who precipitated this entire mess.
        5y ago
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    Because prawnsalad basically says to do what you're doing: not trust anyone. ;)
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    He’s a known community figure, develops important IRC software, and says he is Friends with the two parties in question, and the parties do not dispute the Continued friendship despite the drama.
- LinAGKar 5y ago
  I'm hoping more people will move over to Matrix instead
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - LinAGKar 5y ago
    Looks like they are, as they are running the libera.chat Matrix homeserver bridged to the IRC server
- geofft 5y ago
  I read that when it was posted, but I don't follow - what part of that evidence indicates that Libera.chat is untrustworthy or unworthy of support?
- josefx 5y ago
  The "Spilling into IRCv3" is him accusing someone suggested for board membership of lying, the thread he links ends with the conclusion that there is no evidence to support his claims. Seems like he is the one spilling the drama he complains about into IRCv3.
  - jeltz 5y ago
    Agreed. It is obvious even from their own account that it was prawnsalad who let the conflict spill into IRCv3. I can't really agree with their view that they are a neutral third party. They seem deeply involved in the conflict. For reference I had no previous idea who any of the three parties are.

by Fordec 5y ago

jchw 5y ago

I think it’s unambiguous: neither. Libera.chat hasn’t done something this boneheaded, but given how this all went down we should simply not be supporting these networks. The prawnsalad farewell is probably the best evidence: https://gist.github.com/prawnsalad/4ca20da6c2295ddb06c1646791c61953 https://gist.github.com/prawnsalad/4ca20da6c2295ddb06c164679...

capableweb 5y ago
> The prawnsalad farewell is probably the best evidence: As someone who uses IRC daily but has no part in the drama, why would the user's "prawnsalad" evidence be trusted above others? I'm trusting nothing I read right now, but I'm happy to hear why you think some should be trusted over others.
- jchw 5y ago
  prawnsalad was a true neutral party that had no bad blood with either side, and a great contributor to IRC in general, as the leader of kiwiIRC and someone who contributes to IRCv3. On the other hand, who are you? edit: Perhaps it is wrong of me to assume you are immediately discarding this evidence based on the message and thus my derisive tone is unwarranted here, but when I originally read your message the way it came off to me was "We're all moving to Libera.chat, and I really don't want to have to hear any dissent that maybe neither party should be trusted, so I'm just going to throw out suspicions without reading this." It's not like I personally know prawnsalad, but I am kind of flustered by this response because it feels so dismissive when it's clear many were happy to trust the Libera.chat owners at face value despite everything. edit 2: I would feel too dishonest changing the wording after the fact but I apologize for the rudeness.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    I'm trusting neither Libera nor Freenode at this point. Libera I won't trust because it was launched and Freenode because they are currently actively silencing discussions. That's what I meant with "I'm trusting nothing I read right now". I'm currently at the stage of reaching some semi-informed decision but I haven't yet, so your additional piece of information is very welcome, thanks :)
    - pferde 5y ago
      Yes, both networks are starting with metaphorical trustworthiness level at zero. Libera, however, has a lot of implicit trust and goodwill because it is run by all the people who have been successfully running Freenode for all these years. These people have had a lot of time to screw users over for whatever reason, but have proven themselves to be honorable. Freenode, on the other hand, is right now accruing "negative goodwill" by the bushels almost every day, thanks to its heavy-handed actions and communication. Time will tell, I guess, but the optics are looking pretty one-sided, in my opinion.
      - sampo 5y ago
        > it is run by all the people who have been successfully running Freenode for all these years Not all: 2006-2021 head of staff, Dahlskjaer, resigned in February 2021. Some sources maybe hint that there was some drama involved.
        account42 5y ago
        The same head of staff that sold Freenode. So there being drama does in anyway hint at the libera staff being untrustworthy.
        wearywanderer 5y ago
        Dahlskjaer not being involved makes Libera more trustworthy, not less. They are the one who precipitated this entire mess.
        5y ago
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  Because prawnsalad basically says to do what you're doing: not trust anyone. ;)
- threatofrain 5y ago
  He’s a known community figure, develops important IRC software, and says he is Friends with the two parties in question, and the parties do not dispute the Continued friendship despite the drama.
LinAGKar 5y ago
I'm hoping more people will move over to Matrix instead
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- LinAGKar 5y ago
  Looks like they are, as they are running the libera.chat Matrix homeserver bridged to the IRC server
geofft 5y ago
I read that when it was posted, but I don't follow - what part of that evidence indicates that Libera.chat is untrustworthy or unworthy of support?
josefx 5y ago
The "Spilling into IRCv3" is him accusing someone suggested for board membership of lying, the thread he links ends with the conclusion that there is no evidence to support his claims. Seems like he is the one spilling the drama he complains about into IRCv3.
- jeltz 5y ago
  Agreed. It is obvious even from their own account that it was prawnsalad who let the conflict spill into IRCv3. I can't really agree with their view that they are a neutral third party. They seem deeply involved in the conflict. For reference I had no previous idea who any of the three parties are.