5 ms·

This kind of test is really tricky because you are either trained to recognize the artifacts of MP3 compression, or you are not in which case you just "trust yo

This kind of test is really tricky because you are either trained to recognize the artifacts of MP3 compression, or you are not in which case you just "trust your gut". And if you are used to listen to compressed music (e.g. youtube), you will probably pick that. And that is not even taking into account that MP3 (despite being really old and not the most efficient at this point) is good at what it does, especially at 320k.

cogman10 5y ago
Usually what newer codecs buy you is the same quality for lower bitrates. AAC-HE, for example, would be pretty hard to pick out at 128K. Opus at 96K. Push either of those to 320K and I doubt anyone can really tell the difference. A similar thing happens with MPEG2. At a certain point, all the bits thrown at it make it indistinguishable from source. Where newer codec shine is when you start saying "what if we do this at 1000kbps" or "600kbps". https://opus-codec.org/examples/ https://opus-codec.org/examples/
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
This makes me wonder—these discussions usually assume that compression artifacts make audio sound worse, but is that always necessarily the case? Could they just as easily make it more pleasing?
- rozab 5y ago
  I expect removal of very high and low frequencies could make some music sound subjectively better.
  - fuzzfactor 5y ago
    Sometimes it may be helpful to look at some fundamentals from a completely analog point of view before trying to make the most out of what digital has to offer. If so Chapter 14 Fidelity and Distortion in Radiotron (RDH4) can be a good place to start: https://ia801602.us.archive.org/18/items/bitsavers_rcaRadiotr1954_94958503/Radiotron_Designers_Handbook_1954.pdf https://ia801602.us.archive.org/18/items/bitsavers_rcaRadiot... >The values of total harmonic distortion to provide objectionable distortion are 2 % with a frequency range of 15000 c/s and 10.8% with a frequency range of 3750 c/s for music, and 3% and 12.8% respectively for speech, with a pentode. Even if almost nobody is using pentodes any more, you could do worse. The whole thing is 1400 pages, you can see what engineers were up to with their slide rules back then. Chapter 19 if you really want to know about decibels . . .
    - karmakaze 5y ago
      With THD, strong odd harmonics are objectionable sooner than the even ones, unless you happen to like an aggressive over-driven transistor sound.
- Jiejeing 5y ago
  They certainly can, it really depends on the music being compressed and the user’s preferences. MP3 often sounds "cleaner" thanks to shaving off part of the spectrum that is not as audible.
- rodgerd 5y ago
  I imagine that by now, skilled audio engineers who are working on distribution tracks for artists will well and truly have the hang of mixing for the various lossy codecs out there.
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    It sounds like most "engineers" these days just put a brickwall limiter on the master and call it a day.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  “Whatever you now find weird, ugly, uncomfortable and nasty about a new medium will surely become its signature. CD distortion, the jitteriness of digital video, the crap sound of 8-bit - all of these will be cherished and emulated as soon as they can be avoided. It’s the sound of failure: so much modern art is the sound of things going out of control, of a medium pushing to its limits and breaking apart. The distorted guitar sound is the sound of something too loud for the medium supposed to carry it. The blues singer with the cracked voice is the sound of an emotional cry too powerful for the throat that releases it. The excitement of grainy film, of bleached-out black and white, is the excitement of witnessing events too momentous for the medium assigned to record them.” ― Brian Eno, A Year With Swollen Appendices
- userbinator 5y ago
  Apparently yes: http://web.archive.org/web/20090303092253/http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/03/the-sizzling-sound-of-music.html http://web.archive.org/web/20090303092253/http://radar.oreil... Personally I've had a similar experience: hearing a song somewhere played on low-quality speakers and liking it, then later finding the high-quality version and not liking it as much.
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    I suppose it's nothing surprising, but I've had the opposite experience, hearing Michael Jackson's Thriller from SACD on highend speakers after listening to it from tape in my youth. *chefs kiss*
  - karmakaze 5y ago
    That's exactly how I feel about 4k TV or 48 or 60fps films. Unless it's sports or certain modern/comics action 720p with color depth seems about right. But as the Brian Eno quote says, it's what I'm used to or learned to like. I remember I had one friend that when CDs came out didn't like them, but found that if he recorded them onto S-VHS tape sounded best of all, so he ended up using S-VHS like cassettes at home. In theory could have got a portable but that's taking it a step too far.
Tomte 5y ago
MP3 Pre-echo demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtiRBFWkRKs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtiRBFWkRKs (at 54 seconds)

cogman10 5y ago

Usually what newer codecs buy you is the same quality for lower bitrates. AAC-HE, for example, would be pretty hard to pick out at 128K. Opus at 96K. Push either of those to 320K and I doubt anyone can really tell the difference. A similar thing happens with MPEG2. At a certain point, all the bits thrown at it make it indistinguishable from source. Where newer codec shine is when you start saying "what if we do this at 1000kbps" or "600kbps". https://opus-codec.org/examples/ https://opus-codec.org/examples/

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

This makes me wonder—these discussions usually assume that compression artifacts make audio sound worse, but is that always necessarily the case? Could they just as easily make it more pleasing?

rozab 5y ago
I expect removal of very high and low frequencies could make some music sound subjectively better.
- fuzzfactor 5y ago
  Sometimes it may be helpful to look at some fundamentals from a completely analog point of view before trying to make the most out of what digital has to offer. If so Chapter 14 Fidelity and Distortion in Radiotron (RDH4) can be a good place to start: https://ia801602.us.archive.org/18/items/bitsavers_rcaRadiotr1954_94958503/Radiotron_Designers_Handbook_1954.pdf https://ia801602.us.archive.org/18/items/bitsavers_rcaRadiot... >The values of total harmonic distortion to provide objectionable distortion are 2 % with a frequency range of 15000 c/s and 10.8% with a frequency range of 3750 c/s for music, and 3% and 12.8% respectively for speech, with a pentode. Even if almost nobody is using pentodes any more, you could do worse. The whole thing is 1400 pages, you can see what engineers were up to with their slide rules back then. Chapter 19 if you really want to know about decibels . . .
  - karmakaze 5y ago
    With THD, strong odd harmonics are objectionable sooner than the even ones, unless you happen to like an aggressive over-driven transistor sound.
Jiejeing 5y ago
They certainly can, it really depends on the music being compressed and the user’s preferences. MP3 often sounds "cleaner" thanks to shaving off part of the spectrum that is not as audible.
rodgerd 5y ago
I imagine that by now, skilled audio engineers who are working on distribution tracks for artists will well and truly have the hang of mixing for the various lossy codecs out there.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  It sounds like most "engineers" these days just put a brickwall limiter on the master and call it a day.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
LeoPanthera 5y ago
“Whatever you now find weird, ugly, uncomfortable and nasty about a new medium will surely become its signature. CD distortion, the jitteriness of digital video, the crap sound of 8-bit - all of these will be cherished and emulated as soon as they can be avoided. It’s the sound of failure: so much modern art is the sound of things going out of control, of a medium pushing to its limits and breaking apart. The distorted guitar sound is the sound of something too loud for the medium supposed to carry it. The blues singer with the cracked voice is the sound of an emotional cry too powerful for the throat that releases it. The excitement of grainy film, of bleached-out black and white, is the excitement of witnessing events too momentous for the medium assigned to record them.” ― Brian Eno, A Year With Swollen Appendices
userbinator 5y ago
Apparently yes: http://web.archive.org/web/20090303092253/http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/03/the-sizzling-sound-of-music.html http://web.archive.org/web/20090303092253/http://radar.oreil... Personally I've had a similar experience: hearing a song somewhere played on low-quality speakers and liking it, then later finding the high-quality version and not liking it as much.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  I suppose it's nothing surprising, but I've had the opposite experience, hearing Michael Jackson's Thriller from SACD on highend speakers after listening to it from tape in my youth. *chefs kiss*
- karmakaze 5y ago
  That's exactly how I feel about 4k TV or 48 or 60fps films. Unless it's sports or certain modern/comics action 720p with color depth seems about right. But as the Brian Eno quote says, it's what I'm used to or learned to like. I remember I had one friend that when CDs came out didn't like them, but found that if he recorded them onto S-VHS tape sounded best of all, so he ended up using S-VHS like cassettes at home. In theory could have got a portable but that's taking it a step too far.

Tomte 5y ago

MP3 Pre-echo demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtiRBFWkRKs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtiRBFWkRKs (at 54 seconds)