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The downfall of Malaysia’s biggest sugar daddy platform
- aphextron 5y agoDigital pimpin' ain't easy.
- mc32 5y agoWhile we can say it was consensual between adults, it’s clearly exploiting a power imbalance. I’m not sure society is served by young adults lured into “easy” money and driven from other more productive pursuits. On the other hand one could say it “strengthens” relationships because it’s a release valve for relationships which otherwise may be under pressure to break up.
- notsureaboutpg 5y agoI'm just thinking about my parents and how in their lifetime, for women, marrying up was the biggest way towards class mobility. Obviously these people probably don't have the legal protections of a marriage, but the next best way to move up in class is to attend college, and that's not within reach of many (dare I say most) people, especially coming from the US where 60%+ don't have college degrees. Are power imbalances so bad that we should seal off avenues to class mobility? Power imbalances can be abused but they aren't always.
- eric4smith 5y agoEverything that has to do with money is some sort of power imbalance. Boss pays you for the power to direct your energies. Taxes. Customers pay you to do things. Just because it’s related to sex does not make it more of an imbalance. And no - don’t get it twisted, I’m not advocating for this specific power imbalance.
- tantalor 5y agoThe real villain was capitalism all along?! Who's been messin' up everything...
- eric4smith 5y agoIn the absence of capitalism there were more openly worse power imbalances such as slavery. Serfs. Selling of children. Communism. Give me the power imbalance that rewards me instead of forced labor any day.
- karpierz 5y agoWhy are you contrasting slavery with capitalism when it was, and still is part of capitalism?
- tantalor 5y agoYeah, it is literally called the "slave trade".
- mc32 5y agoSo there were no slaves under barter or pre-barter economies? Armies didn't take people and put them to work if they didn't kill them? All of this precedes "capitalism" and also existed in non-capitalist economies. What were gulags and other such mechanisms if not enslavement with added mortality?
- rjsw 5y agoAre there any examples of barter or pre-barter economies ? I thought there was evidence that money was invented fairly early to be able to keep track of what goods or services had been exchanged.
- karpierz 5y agoSlavery isn't particular to capitalism, but definitely is not in contrast to it or separate from it. Even if you relegate it to far-off countries and simply import goods from them without asking how the goods were made.
- spoonjim 5y ago
- mc32 5y agoYes, we can see power imbalances wherever we look. Food, plant vs the grazer. Never the less, I think some are more one-sided and extreme than others. Some are more productive than others. Here these customers are setting out the rules such as "exclusivity" privileges, emotional privileges and more.
- whimsicalism 5y agoWhy is it generally bad for bosses to solicit sex from their employees? Clearly there is something distinguishing some power imbalances from others.
- incrudible 5y ago> Why is it generally bad for bosses to solicit sex from their employees? Because, unlike a sugar baby, that's not what the employee signed up for.
- whimsicalism 5y agoThey can quit, generally one's job role doesn't stay entirely static. Oftentimes, a role changes to something that an employee didn't sign up for. Perhaps there is something unique about sex and how it interacts with power dynamics? I want to capture the intuition that we generally all share around stuff like this. A statement like > Just because it’s related to sex does not make it more of an imbalance. does not seem to capture this intuition that most people hold.
- incrudible 5y ago> Oftentimes, a role changes to something that an employee didn't sign up for. ...which is also generally bad if the role is materially different and goes on top of what was signed up for, with little to no extra compensation. > Perhaps there is something unique about sex and how it interacts with power dynamics? Suppose that your boss asked you, in addition to your current duties, instead of giving sexual favors, you follow him home and do all his laundry - with the same implication that your career hinges on it. Would that change the power dynamic? I don't think so. The only thing that "sex" changes is that it arouses attention.
- whimsicalism 5y agoYes, I think it would be worse if my boss said I must have sex with them in order to keep my job than if they asked me to do their laundry. Both are bad, but I disagree with your moral intuition - and suspect most people would as well. The key moral fact here is more than just "it's not what you signed up for"
- boh 5y agoJust because you're getting paid to do things does not imply the power balance is the same. As in, if you're an accountant, a lawyer, a doctor, a financial advisor etc. you have power over your customer/patient's/client's well-being as much as they do yours. You are also granted rights based on these relationships, which are not present in acts of prostitution.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- toomuchredbull 5y agoOn the other way there is a power balance between sexes when it comes to access to sex. Lots of men would be sugar babies if it was possible. I can think of a lot worse ways to pay my rent.
- throway98752343 5y agoWe should replace "adults" with "economic equals." It's harder (but not impossible) to define legally, but it would fix edge cases like Indecent Proposal and A Teacher.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- incrudible 5y ago> While we can say it was consensual between adults, it’s clearly exploiting a power imbalance. By that standard, any employment arrangement would constitute a power imbalance, which would raise the question of whether such a power imbalance is at all problematic.
- imwillofficial 5y agoI find the idea of “the social and mental health aspects of these types of sites” to be an interesting angle. Are arrangements like these damaging to society or the participants mental health? Anyone have any data on this aspect of the ban?
- tdfx 5y agoI don't think the ban had anything to do with genuine care for society or the participants. It was virtue signaling to a Muslim political base by a government, selling the idea that their government and by extension their society is morally intact, regardless of the reality on the ground. It's very similar to how exercise infomercials work -- you sell people the ideal of how they already want to view themselves, not the product itself. And quite reliably, people buy it.
- imwillofficial 5y agoPerhaps you’re right, but it raises an interesting question non-the-less
- redis_mlc 5y agoIt's an amusing article - combining Islam with Sugarbook is pretty explosive. (Malaysia's dominant ethnic groups are locals, Indians and Chinese, but their constitution favors Muslims.) It's accepted to have temporary wives (under a religious marriage for a few days) as escorts in Islamic countries, but quietly. Once it hits the press, authorities often feel compelled to do something about it. But Sugarbook doesn't even fall under the fig leaf of temporary wives, and the membership numbers are shocking for a small country. Some other commenters asked what's the harm of Sugarbook or OF: 1) women have a limited window to start a family and have children. Disrupting that has a very high price for both individuals and society. 2) making relationships purely transactional 3) normalizing the above across the population.
- cher88 5y agoMalaysia’s dominant ethic group is Malay, which is defined by the constitution as someone who “professes the religion of Islam, habitually speaks the Malay language, and conforms to Malay custom.” It is this group that the constitution favors. (Incidentally, it is illegal to convert out of Islam in Malaysia.) The indigenous locals, Chinese, and Indians are all minorities.
- redis_mlc 5y agoWe both know what "the constitution favors" means, and it isn't pretty. By locals I meant Malay, since there aren't a lot of Dayak, etc. walking around the cities. But I forgot to mention that prostitution is allowed for Chinese women in Malaysia, so the first floor in most hotels is a giant brothel. Gotta love Islamic countries. :)
- gher-shyu3i 5y ago> combining Islam with Sugarbook is pretty explosive What's that supposed to mean? Islam is strictly against this practice.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y agoThe Catholic church never condoned pederasty either...
- justicezyx 5y agoInstead of actually and directly empowering the youth for their own growth in intellectual, body, and mind, a digital brothel aims to empower them so that they can cheaply sell their sexuality. Sure, in the framework of capitalism and individual freedom, this is uncritizable. But let's step back a little bit, and see this in its actual form, and acknowledge that it's a well-justified ban.
- tastyfreeze 5y agoIf there is no coercion then what is the problem? Capitalism doesn't even need to be considered for this to be uncriticizable. They are not harming anybody other than some people's sense of moral superiority. If they choose to sell their sexuality that is their choice.
- soared 5y agoThere is a difference in beliefs and play between you and op. OP may believe that some restriction of personal choices for the greater good (women choosing education, careers, etc over selling their bodies) is justifiable. You may not believe that. In reality the laws provide a mix of the two. You can say almost anything you want, but you can’t yell fire in a movie theatre. Similarly, you maybe can sell anything you want, but selling your body may be a net negative for society.
- tastyfreeze 5y agoI understand there is a difference in beliefs. That is why I wrote my comment, to offer a different perspective to the conversation. There are enough people on the planet that we do not need to restrict personal choices for the greater good beyond the golden rule. I don't want to tell somebody what they can and can't do because I don't want others telling me the same. I will do what I want to satisfy Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and I am not going to stop others from doing the same as long as there is no force involved.
- throway98752343 5y agoProstitution has effects beyond the two parties exchanging money for sex by making a market for something we don't explicitly buy and sell, similar to human organs reclining on airline seats. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/upshot/dont-want-me-to-recline-my-airline-seat-you-can-pay-me.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/upshot/dont-want-me-to-re... It's easier to understand by flipping the situation: Let's say society's age-old tradition was that men MUST pay women for sex, and it's shameful (even illegal) not to. But a few women say no, we want to be able to have sex for free. If the men know that free sex is now a real option, why would they keep paying for it? This freedom would drive the price of sex down, and could cause the sex market to collapse. The equivalent in our timeline is if sex went from being generally free to always having a price.
- eric4smith 5y agoIf you look back a history , since the beginning of time, society has sought to limit sexual expression. Shame was the tool, but now that shame has been removed from sexual expression, more ways have been used to curb that expression. Just look at Instagram, in the beginning women could openly advertise only fans. Now that is restricted and also on twitch and YouTube is making moves in that direction. That’s what’s happening in Malaysia right now. I’m not saying it’s good or bad, it’s just what’s happening around the world and it will forever been a constant struggle as the pendulum swings from one end to the other. In the end unrestricted sexual freedom leads to lower birth rates as people have more choice. Just look at worldwide birth rate stats over the past 20 years. Covid only sped them up. There is no “they” that considers this or enforces this - it’s just the human organism fighting for ways to keep itself alive. Check out Greg Bears theories on how germs and viruses actually control the overall operations of humans in a bid for self survival. Fascinating. That’s what makes the world interesting sometimes —- to gaze at this struggle going on with open and neutral eyes.
- ketralnis 5y ago> There is no “they” that considers this or enforces this - it’s just the human organism fighting for ways to keep itself alive. There clearly is, aside from differing fertility rates these are all actions of authorities of one sort of another. They're different authorities but most are religious whether directly (Malaysia is a conservative Muslim country) or indirectly (Twitch isn't religious per se but it's following the puritanical values of the US)
- eric4smith 5y agoThat’s why it’s fun to watch. Step back from religion for a minute and see the giant forces at work that almost has nothing to do with governments or religions or social movements. It’s so powerful that those things are just instruments rather than reasons.
- doggodaddo78 5y agoI can't prove it, but I suspect, that the human species superorganism contains evolutionary psych aspects that, rather than grossly-overpopulate leading to mass deaths like most animals, more softly curtails reproduction as population explodes and resources become scarcer. (People are happier, have more sex, and couple and "nest" more when "times are good.") Such behavioral, preference, lifestyle, openness, and attitude changes include: Alternative gender/sexual identity expressions diverging from family focus, stress/anxiety, voluntary celibacy, perfectionist family planning (contraception, abortion, workaholism, and stricter goals), shallower human interactions, disillusionment of love, casualness of increased divorces, elongated adolescence, extended non-monogamy, "failure to launch," distractions like screens and video games, and, inadvertently, fertility reduction causes like obesity and plastics. I'm certain there are more factors I missed and some that are minor.
- eloff 5y agoMen are doing this sugar daddy thing with 14 year old girls here in Vancouver, BC via Instagram and Facebook. Source: 15 year old girls who rejected said propositions but have friends claiming to be making $700/month. That's not iron clad evidence, but I've no reason to assume they're lying. I don't know what the relationship entails - but the whole thing is disgusting to me and nobody seems to care. My wife gets bombarded with these scummy offers, but at least she's an adult.
- MattGaiser 5y agoI am currently 24. Fairly recently was under 18. Plenty of girls of high school age were getting some extremely creepy offers.
- HDMI_Cable 5y agoJeez, in Vancouver? You should report that stuff, I’ve heard the RCMP takes it really seriously.
- eloff 5y agoIts not my place to do that on hearsay from friend's kids. At best it's up to those friends to do that.
- tdfx 5y agoI think the big change hasn't been on the male side, but rather on the female side. There's always been creepy men willing to do this... the big change has been the mainstreaming of the acceptability of this among females. It used to be embarrassing to be seen as the kind of girl that spends time with old rich guys in exchange for gifts. Now being on their yacht in Biscayne Bay is worth the instagram clout for many girls. Go for a walk on the beach in Tulum and you'll see the average age difference of couples is something like 20 years. Instead of keeping it a secret, college age girls know their friends are doing it, as well, so there's no social pressure to hide it.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
- tantalor 5y agoHe’ll now head to Instagram instead, scroll through accounts... and flag those he likes to an “agent” who’ll get in touch on his behalf Wow, plainly admits to abusing social media for soliciting sex from people he knows aren't sex workers. It's not hard to imagine some minors get "flagged" too. This is the stuff of sex trafficking.
- rkk3 5y agoSure it is creepy... but he believes they are sex workers, you just selectively quoted. "he’ll now head to Instagram instead, scroll through accounts ('a dead giveaway is if she has travel pictures alone')"
- magneticnorth 5y agoThat part also is super surprising to me! This is presumably a cultural difference between myself as an American and Malaysian culture, but it seems fairly common for women to travel alone occasionally, and most wouldn't think twice about posting nice photos on Instagram. Solo female travelers aren't necessarily prostitutes!
- anovikov 5y agoCan anybody really tell what's wrong about it. Some people are too jealous that some young girls get to make some money? They much rather do it rather than get under influence of people who push them into religious bigotry, or into studying to get bullshit degrees that makes them earn less than if they didn't... There are many ways to waste your young years and this is by far not one of worst of them.
- JohnWhigham 5y agoSome people are too jealous that some young girls get to make some money? That has always been the root of the rage that comes with these applications. The hilarious irony is that they're always shut down to "protect" the women from the evil predatory men, which just exposes their hypocrisy: they don't believe adult women have enough agency to make their own choices.