4 ms·

Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force. 1 - https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/837/#3.1 h

Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force. 1 - https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/837/#3.1 https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/837/#3.1

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force. For a misdemeanor (as the shoplifting described in this case appears to be), only if the arrested party actually committed the offense and it occurred in the arresting party’s presence (for a felony, the terms are somewhat looser.) As the description clearly indicates that the offense did not occur in the poster’s presence and he wasn’t even aware of the offense until after using force to restrain his victim, he committed both battery and false imprisonment by violence, the latter of which is a felony offense, and the former is at a minimum a violent misdemeanor.
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  What do the courts mean by "in the presence?" Although they have not had occasion to elaborate much, they have said that the crime must have been "apparent to the senses," but that this requirement should be interpreted "liberally." Thus, it will be satisfied if the citizen was aware of circumstances from which he could reasonably infer that a crime was occurring in his presence - https://le.alcoda.org/publications/files/CITIZENSARREST.pdf https://le.alcoda.org/publications/files/CITIZENSARREST.pdf I think this would qualify as committing the crime "in the presence" of the above commenter. Running away is part of the theft and that was done in the presence of the commenter.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > What do the courts mean by "in the presence?" Even the most liberal definition doesn’t include the arrestor being only aware of the crime after the arrest (even the looser felony citizen arrest rules require both knowledge of the offense and reasonable belief that the arrestee committed it, as well as, as in the misdemeanor case, actual guilt.)
    - ALittleLight 5y ago
      I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I think it is perfectly obvious that if you witness theft taking place then the crime is taking place "in your presence".
- psychomugs 5y ago
  I judged the given probability P(crime | guy being chased in the streets & SF) as much higher than chance, which is what led me to yield to instinct. I realize that I was over my head considering the guy was much bigger than me and I had no way of knowing if he was armed or not, but I sleep better at night knowing I did what I could to act as a decent human being.
  - sig-reduction 5y ago
    You physically attacked a person because he was being chased. Later on, you learned that he might have taken a pair of shoes that were in all likelihood manufactured using slave labor. Can you explain how you are in any way different from a person who would have participated in a lynch mob in the rural south less than a generation ago? Edit: I got downvoted, so I want to clarify that I didn't say this person is like a lynch mob participant. I'm just curious how they distinguish their conduct.
    - psychomugs 5y ago
      Because I was raised to do what I can to help people in need, who was very obviously not the guy running away, smiling, from two people who looked very distraught. > manufactured using slave labor. You’re grasping here. Nice bait.
      - sig-reduction 5y ago
        Check out this analysis of American action movies. It may change the way you see Batman and other characters that may have influenced your thinking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOMiAeRwpPA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOMiAeRwpPA
        yeetawayhn 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force. For a misdemeanor (as the shoplifting described in this case appears to be), only if the arrested party actually committed the offense and it occurred in the arresting party’s presence (for a felony, the terms are somewhat looser.) As the description clearly indicates that the offense did not occur in the poster’s presence and he wasn’t even aware of the offense until after using force to restrain his victim, he committed both battery and false imprisonment by violence, the latter of which is a felony offense, and the former is at a minimum a violent misdemeanor.

ALittleLight 5y ago
What do the courts mean by "in the presence?" Although they have not had occasion to elaborate much, they have said that the crime must have been "apparent to the senses," but that this requirement should be interpreted "liberally." Thus, it will be satisfied if the citizen was aware of circumstances from which he could reasonably infer that a crime was occurring in his presence - https://le.alcoda.org/publications/files/CITIZENSARREST.pdf https://le.alcoda.org/publications/files/CITIZENSARREST.pdf I think this would qualify as committing the crime "in the presence" of the above commenter. Running away is part of the theft and that was done in the presence of the commenter.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > What do the courts mean by "in the presence?" Even the most liberal definition doesn’t include the arrestor being only aware of the crime after the arrest (even the looser felony citizen arrest rules require both knowledge of the offense and reasonable belief that the arrestee committed it, as well as, as in the misdemeanor case, actual guilt.)
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I think it is perfectly obvious that if you witness theft taking place then the crime is taking place "in your presence".
psychomugs 5y ago
I judged the given probability P(crime | guy being chased in the streets & SF) as much higher than chance, which is what led me to yield to instinct. I realize that I was over my head considering the guy was much bigger than me and I had no way of knowing if he was armed or not, but I sleep better at night knowing I did what I could to act as a decent human being.
- sig-reduction 5y ago
  You physically attacked a person because he was being chased. Later on, you learned that he might have taken a pair of shoes that were in all likelihood manufactured using slave labor. Can you explain how you are in any way different from a person who would have participated in a lynch mob in the rural south less than a generation ago? Edit: I got downvoted, so I want to clarify that I didn't say this person is like a lynch mob participant. I'm just curious how they distinguish their conduct.
  - psychomugs 5y ago
    Because I was raised to do what I can to help people in need, who was very obviously not the guy running away, smiling, from two people who looked very distraught. > manufactured using slave labor. You’re grasping here. Nice bait.
    - sig-reduction 5y ago
      Check out this analysis of American action movies. It may change the way you see Batman and other characters that may have influenced your thinking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOMiAeRwpPA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOMiAeRwpPA
      - yeetawayhn 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer