8 ms·

It was my last day in SF after a semester-long internship, and I decided to take photos around downtown. I was passing through Union Square on my way home when

It was my last day in SF after a semester-long internship, and I decided to take photos around downtown. I was passing through Union Square on my way home when I saw a guy weaving through traffic, with two people chasing after him and yelling at him to give something back. I instinctively started booking it after him, caught up to him in the middle of a food truck area, grabbed him by his hoodie collar, and pinned him down while I waited for the pursuers to catch up. It turns out he ran out of their shoe store with a pair that he was trying on. While I was holding him down, I realized that I still had my camera in my hand, and I instinctively took photos during the whole ordeal [1]. Between this episode and others I’ve seen or heard about (buckets of literal shit in the streets, friends-of-friends getting mugged in broad daylight, sometimes right outside their apartments), SF is really low on the list of places I want to live in. [1] https://www.instagram.com/p/BrtlSaPAMNG/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BrtlSaPAMNG/

chrischen 5y ago
Nobody comes to live in SF because of those things you experienced. They come for the sweet VC money, jobs at Facebook and Google. And likewise, criminals come because that money exists there too.
- threwawasy1228 5y ago
  There is VC money in NYC, Chicago, Boston, and Seattle, and I can work at Google or Facebook from most of those cities. I will never move to SF in the condition it is in, and I'm sure many other people feel the same. These opportunities exist elsewhere.
  - chrischen 5y ago
    So... why did the people move to SF? To step in poop? Those jobs exist elsewhere, but not at the numbers they exist at in SF and the surrounding area. Most young people who move to The Bay Area would then end up moving to SF because it's the closest "real" city.
    - threwawasy1228 5y ago
      I'm a "young person" who chose not to move to the Bay. The market will eventually even out based on the policy and perception of a given city on generational-timescales. SF didn't become tech/VC capital overnight, and it won't decline over night either. It will decline one junior or midlevel dev at a time going to one of the cities I mentioned or Austin/Miami/etc.
      - chrischen 5y ago
        Except that jobs don't go where young people are... Young people go where jobs are, and they tend to want to live in cities as well. For example, see the TV show Friends. As bachelors and bachelorettes, they lived in the city for dating, social life, etc, but by the finale they moved out of the city to settle down.
        psychomugs 5y ago
        Actually, research shows that this effect is mixed, and even in support of "smart and creative" jobs following highly educated people [1,2]. Granted, this is in Europe and I don't see any mention of age demographics in a light skim of the paper, but I'd take this over Friends (frankly, I'd take many things over Friends). [1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00343404.2016.1254765 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00343404.2016.1... "Distinguishing between the smart sector and the main sector, the data support jobs follow people and not people follow jobs (as suggested by the aggregate analysis). In the smart sector, the effect appears to be large. In the main sector, the effect seems to be smaller and less precisely identified." [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-30/do-jobs-follow-people-this-new-study-says-sometimes https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-30/do-jobs-f... - article version summarizing the paper.
        chrischen 5y ago
        https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/u-s-millennials-really-do-prefer-cities https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/u-s-mille... You don't have to trust Friends. You can just Google this yourself or trust your instincts. But barring that, it's well established that younger people tend towards cities. As for jobs following people or not, your article points out that it's a chicken and egg thing, and that high talent people may attract jobs, but they also beget more jobs. In The Bay Area, throw in startup culture and VC/Angel funding and you add more fuel to the fire. YC's stated reason for moving from Boston to Mountain View was actually because the investors were in CA. You could say that initially maybe it was talent from the top local schools (Berkeley, Stanford), and semiconductor research, that attracted the VCs here. Then it created jobs from companies seeking those VCs, but today, in the current state, people are coming here for the jobs. It's a feedback loop but I wouldn't put most people's ambitions for moving to SF being the quality of life offered in the city itself. Rather than arguing aimlessly in this thread I'll rephrase threwawasy1228's thesis and my rebuttal: San Francisco is going to be in decline because of lowering quality of life (poop on streets, crime, etc) repelling some talent. My rebuttal: These were never the reasons attracting people to come to SF in the first place. It was the availability of jobs, opportunities, and VC money and startup networking. If these things disappear, perhaps due to remote work opportunities, then yes SF would tend to decline due to the loss of local advantages. Otherwise, as long as these attractors exist it's going to keep the area a hot-spot. Of course, SF's rent isn't going to rise forever. Eventually it will reach equilibrium where enough people like threwawasy1228 will decide it's not worth the job/opportunity and this cooling down will be hailed as the "end" or "decline" of SF.
dude187 5y ago
Doing god's work! It's crazy that people can be so deluded to think that actually having enforcement against such victimization is somehow negative.
sneak 5y ago
What you did was illegal. Additionally, that's a misuse of "instinctive".
- psychomugs 5y ago
  I know my photographic rights; I was in public on public property photographing someone else on public property, which is legal in the US [1]. The only illegal happening here was theft on the part of the thief. I realize that you’re probably not based here if you think otherwise. I’m a photographer and a distance runner and I’m good enough at both to have made money off of them. Both reactions were instinctive. [1] https://www.acludc.org/en/know-your-rights/know-your-rights-if-stopped-photographing-public https://www.acludc.org/en/know-your-rights/know-your-rights-...
  - sneak 5y ago
    > grabbed him by his hoodie collar, and pinned him down I was referring to the battery. > I’m a photographer and a distance runner and I’m good enough at both to have made money off of them. Both reactions were instinctive. The experiences and training you have had post-birth have no bearing on your innate human instinctual responses, which are shared in common with all members of your species, including the ones that aren't runners or photographers. It is likely you meant "subconscious" or perhaps "automatic".
    - ALittleLight 5y ago
      Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force. 1 - https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/837/#3.1 https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/837/#3.1
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force. For a misdemeanor (as the shoplifting described in this case appears to be), only if the arrested party actually committed the offense and it occurred in the arresting party’s presence (for a felony, the terms are somewhat looser.) As the description clearly indicates that the offense did not occur in the poster’s presence and he wasn’t even aware of the offense until after using force to restrain his victim, he committed both battery and false imprisonment by violence, the latter of which is a felony offense, and the former is at a minimum a violent misdemeanor.

chrischen 5y ago

Nobody comes to live in SF because of those things you experienced. They come for the sweet VC money, jobs at Facebook and Google. And likewise, criminals come because that money exists there too.

threwawasy1228 5y ago
There is VC money in NYC, Chicago, Boston, and Seattle, and I can work at Google or Facebook from most of those cities. I will never move to SF in the condition it is in, and I'm sure many other people feel the same. These opportunities exist elsewhere.
- chrischen 5y ago
  So... why did the people move to SF? To step in poop? Those jobs exist elsewhere, but not at the numbers they exist at in SF and the surrounding area. Most young people who move to The Bay Area would then end up moving to SF because it's the closest "real" city.
  - threwawasy1228 5y ago
    I'm a "young person" who chose not to move to the Bay. The market will eventually even out based on the policy and perception of a given city on generational-timescales. SF didn't become tech/VC capital overnight, and it won't decline over night either. It will decline one junior or midlevel dev at a time going to one of the cities I mentioned or Austin/Miami/etc.
    - chrischen 5y ago
      Except that jobs don't go where young people are... Young people go where jobs are, and they tend to want to live in cities as well. For example, see the TV show Friends. As bachelors and bachelorettes, they lived in the city for dating, social life, etc, but by the finale they moved out of the city to settle down.
      - psychomugs 5y ago
        Actually, research shows that this effect is mixed, and even in support of "smart and creative" jobs following highly educated people [1,2]. Granted, this is in Europe and I don't see any mention of age demographics in a light skim of the paper, but I'd take this over Friends (frankly, I'd take many things over Friends). [1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00343404.2016.1254765 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00343404.2016.1... "Distinguishing between the smart sector and the main sector, the data support jobs follow people and not people follow jobs (as suggested by the aggregate analysis). In the smart sector, the effect appears to be large. In the main sector, the effect seems to be smaller and less precisely identified." [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-30/do-jobs-follow-people-this-new-study-says-sometimes https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-30/do-jobs-f... - article version summarizing the paper.
        chrischen 5y ago
        https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/u-s-millennials-really-do-prefer-cities https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/u-s-mille... You don't have to trust Friends. You can just Google this yourself or trust your instincts. But barring that, it's well established that younger people tend towards cities. As for jobs following people or not, your article points out that it's a chicken and egg thing, and that high talent people may attract jobs, but they also beget more jobs. In The Bay Area, throw in startup culture and VC/Angel funding and you add more fuel to the fire. YC's stated reason for moving from Boston to Mountain View was actually because the investors were in CA. You could say that initially maybe it was talent from the top local schools (Berkeley, Stanford), and semiconductor research, that attracted the VCs here. Then it created jobs from companies seeking those VCs, but today, in the current state, people are coming here for the jobs. It's a feedback loop but I wouldn't put most people's ambitions for moving to SF being the quality of life offered in the city itself. Rather than arguing aimlessly in this thread I'll rephrase threwawasy1228's thesis and my rebuttal: San Francisco is going to be in decline because of lowering quality of life (poop on streets, crime, etc) repelling some talent. My rebuttal: These were never the reasons attracting people to come to SF in the first place. It was the availability of jobs, opportunities, and VC money and startup networking. If these things disappear, perhaps due to remote work opportunities, then yes SF would tend to decline due to the loss of local advantages. Otherwise, as long as these attractors exist it's going to keep the area a hot-spot. Of course, SF's rent isn't going to rise forever. Eventually it will reach equilibrium where enough people like threwawasy1228 will decide it's not worth the job/opportunity and this cooling down will be hailed as the "end" or "decline" of SF.

dude187 5y ago

Doing god's work! It's crazy that people can be so deluded to think that actually having enforcement against such victimization is somehow negative.

sneak 5y ago

What you did was illegal. Additionally, that's a misuse of "instinctive".

psychomugs 5y ago
I know my photographic rights; I was in public on public property photographing someone else on public property, which is legal in the US [1]. The only illegal happening here was theft on the part of the thief. I realize that you’re probably not based here if you think otherwise. I’m a photographer and a distance runner and I’m good enough at both to have made money off of them. Both reactions were instinctive. [1] https://www.acludc.org/en/know-your-rights/know-your-rights-if-stopped-photographing-public https://www.acludc.org/en/know-your-rights/know-your-rights-...
- sneak 5y ago
  > grabbed him by his hoodie collar, and pinned him down I was referring to the battery. > I’m a photographer and a distance runner and I’m good enough at both to have made money off of them. Both reactions were instinctive. The experiences and training you have had post-birth have no bearing on your innate human instinctual responses, which are shared in common with all members of your species, including the ones that aren't runners or photographers. It is likely you meant "subconscious" or perhaps "automatic".
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force. 1 - https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/837/#3.1 https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/837/#3.1
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force. For a misdemeanor (as the shoplifting described in this case appears to be), only if the arrested party actually committed the offense and it occurred in the arresting party’s presence (for a felony, the terms are somewhat looser.) As the description clearly indicates that the offense did not occur in the poster’s presence and he wasn’t even aware of the offense until after using force to restrain his victim, he committed both battery and false imprisonment by violence, the latter of which is a felony offense, and the former is at a minimum a violent misdemeanor.