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Pfizer vaccine reprograms innate immune responses
- nathiya04 5y agoGood
- March_f6 5y agoI'm honestly pretty torn at this point which vaccine I should be going for. It seems like every week there is another article insinuating that there is some poorly understood, potentially high impact, facet of a given vaccine. Anyone else "holding out?"
- Daishiman 5y agoNot being an expert in the subject, but a lot of the COVID vaccines are based on established and well-tested mechanisms that AFAIK, are fairly predictable.
- PlotCitizen 5y agoI'm also holding out
- mythrwy 5y agoI'm waiting.
- alimw 5y agoUnless you are a researcher in the field, there are certainly more important things for you to be worrying about. Just get a vaccine, any vaccine.
- incrudible 5y agoI fail to see any logical reasoning here. This research suggests an unspecific alteration to your immune system. It affects everyone who gets vaccinated, not just researchers. If you are young and healthy, there is a high chance that getting infected with COVID is harmless. Your body will deal with it in the natural way. Furthermore, the risk of getting infected at all is not 100%. I could make the same argument here: There are more important things to be worrying about than COVID.
- theshadowknows 5y agoSure. But you won’t always be young and you may not always be healthy.
- op00to 5y agoIf you get COVID, statistically you’ll pass it on to a few people. Let’s hope you live amongst less selfish people so your own selfish behavior doesn’t affect other.
- mattr47 5y agoSource please? Just by saying "statistically" does not make it true.
- NullPrefix 5y agoTrust the science
- bingbong70 5y agoMedical science has feedback latency. Be careful about trusting brand new scientific claims that haven't gone through rigorous testing.
- invincing 5y agoR0 > 1 rings any bells?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- incrudible 5y agoStatistically, I'm most likely to pass it on to 0 people, because the pareto principle applies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7674790/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7674790/ Furthermore, the people I could pass it on to are either taking the same risk as me (which is fair), or they want to but couldn't get the vaccine yet, in which case they should be vaccinated first, not me.
- kybernetyk 5y agoFor me I'm waiting $N years till I consider getting a covid shot. According to the oxford calculator[0] my risk of hospitalization is microscopic so I take that chance over trying out new under-tested vaxines. [0] https://qcovid.org/ https://qcovid.org/
- kennywinker 5y agoI for one value keeping my sense of smell and taste higher than the risks i’m seeing from vaccines - eliminating the risk of hospitalization is just a bonus
- squarefoot 5y agoI don't agree on waiting years for a vaccine, however the loss/alteration of sense of smell and taste is temporary. It can last more than the other symptoms, but usually after a few weeks it gets back to normal again. I got symptomatic Covid last October and the spike protein test taken at the end of March reports I still have several hundreds u/ml of anti-rbd antibodies, so I'll be reasonably safe for some time, but wouldn't recommend waiting to not immunized people. I had people dying next to my bed, and that is something I can't unsee for the rest of my life.
- op00to 5y agoI think TV programming should be occasionally replaced with deidentified Covid ward footage.
- rangoon626 5y agoYou wanna force this on everyone? Cool. Then I get to enforce outlawing fast food consumption… especially things like Krispy Kreme donuts.
- squarefoot 5y agoForcing maybe not, but as educational tool, not unlike trips to WWII concentration camps for schools, I would offer a free visit to Covid wards to denialists and similar idiots. Once they see someone taken into a bed with a simple oxygen mask, then given a respirator helmet, then intubated, then pronounced dead in a few days, they probably change their perspective.
- kennywinker 5y agoAs far as I can tell the difference between the pfizer and moderna vaccines are negligible. The results of differences in their testing procedure and conditions - the stuff you’re getting is basically the same. So, unless you’re (in my opinion) wrongly calculating the risk from a vaccine as larger than the risk from the disease, the best shot is the one you can get soonest.
- count67 5y agoGiven a choice, I would choose Pzifer over Moderna, since it has fewer side effects [1], but otherwise they're both good and protect approximately equally against known variants. I wouldn't choose J&J or AZ if my age is below 60yo because of a very low risk of deadly side effects (clots). Edit: unless my BMI > 30, in which case any vaccine is better than no vaccine, because of the increased risks of covid-19 on high BMI. [1] https://www.europeanreview.org/article/24877 https://www.europeanreview.org/article/24877
- StavrosK 5y agoOn the contrary, I was excited to finally get it yesterday, even though I already had immunity.
- hef19898 5y agoJohnson and Johnson. Because you only need one shot and you are good to go. Immediately followed by whatever vaccine is available at the moment. Which leaves, at least for the next couple of weeks, with option three: none of the above. So definitely not holding out.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- Traubenfuchs 5y agoI am a fit man, under 30 and my Vitamin D, C and Zinc levels are high. I have zero interest in getting any covid vaccine unless forced to.
- invincing 5y agoYour strategy is not optimal. If you want to be efficiently freeloading, you should not be announcing your position. Freeloading with vaccination only works if just a small enough minority of people are doing it. In order to minimize your personal risk from both covid and potential side effects of vaccination, you should be advocating for others to get vaccinated but not get the shot yourself. If you publicly announce that you are not going to get the vaccination, that may encourage others to avoid it as well. That's against your own interests, because then it's more likely that you get covid when the vaccination coverage in the population is lower.
- Traubenfuchs 5y agoI already thought about this and I fully agree! But I feel rather anonymous on this global message board. I tell all my friends who asked for my opinion to just do what they please and lied to them that yes, I am registered for my shot. Which I am not and won't be, unless my employment or personal comfort are threatened too much. I am also happy my elderly parents took the vaccine. A covid infection is probably more dangerous to them than the vaccine and now I can visit them without testing with a clear conscience.
- doggodaddo78 5y agoI went with Moderna. Just get it. Analysis paralysis is the enemy of the good.
- AnimalMuppet 5y agoI... kind of was? I wasn't in a rush, anyway. Figured I'm healthy enough that I'd let those who are more at risk than me get their shots. And then I went in to the pharmacy to pick up a prescription, and they said, hey, we've got this extra dose, do you want it? So I took it, just because I was there and it was easy.
- nadermx 5y agoNot peer reviewed
- neilwilson 5y agoNot that that would help anyway. That's becoming increasingly an appeal to authority. There isn't anybody to do the review that isn't a colleague or a competitor, or worse part of an established GroupThink. Peer review has had its day due to specialisation in science. The gold standard now has to be replication from the published method. Therefore: not replicated.
- okaram 5y agoPeer reviewed is not the gold standard, it is the bare minimum for lay people to start paying attention.
- neilwilson 5y agoIt's an appeal to authority. Authority which is not established but the process. Increasingly it adds nothing.
- hellothere1337 5y agoI like seeing the strategy of asking for the highest level of accuracy and testing for all things that do not confirm my biases while being more lax about the things that confirm my biases. I've seen this strategy becoming much more popular these past few years.
- benlumen 5y agoIs "reprograms innate immune responses" not just another way of saying it does what a vaccine is supposed to? All I got from it was that it might cause you to react more strongly to fungal infections.
- suchire 5y ago“Innate immunity” is a particular thing in immunology that’s distinct from “adaptive immunity”. Adaptive immunity includes things like antibodies, and is most often what we are targeting with vaccines. Innate immunity covers a huge range of inherited systems including hard-codes responses to things like bacterial proteins, markers for fungi and viruses, etc Like everything else in biology, there is tight coupling between innate immunity and adaptive immunity), so the distinction in reality isn’t so clear-cut about what’s part of innate vs adaptive, but that’s the broad gist.
- doix 5y agoIs anyone here well versed in this stuff? Can you dumb it down a little bit for me? Is the article saying that the pfizer vaccine reduces the inflammatory response to covid19 and happens to increase the inflammatory response to some random fungus? I must have re-read this article a whole bunch of times and I'm still not convinced I understood anything at all.
- Traubenfuchs 5y agoThe experimental covid vaccines changes your immune system response to non-covid pathogens in ways that aren‘t fully understood, potentially permanently. For example, your immune system will react with a stronger inflammatory response to fungus. They also warn that those effects could change (worsen) the effectiveness of other vaccines, for other diseases.
- doix 5y agoAgain not an expert, but from the paper: > Key exclusion criteria included a medical history of COVID-19. Sera and blood samples were collected before the first administration of BNT162b2, three weeks after the first dose (right before the second dose), and two weeks after the second dose. A high percentage (56.3%) of individuals had been vaccinated with BCG in the past 12 months due to the fact that many participants participated in parallel in a BCG-trial. One individual was removed from the dataset after detecting high concentrations of antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 N-antigen at baseline. Which just gives me lots of questions. By excluding people that already had COVID-19, how can you be sure it's the vaccine that's causing this and not the vaccine causing the same changes as covid19? As in what if COVID-19 causes the change in innate immune system response and for some reason the vaccine mimicks that. Also they only tested Pfizer and not the "more traditional" vaccines, how can they confidently link it to mRNA technology? > potentially permanently. They only tested 2 weeks after the second dose, is that really enough time to be making such statements? Again, I'm completely uneducated on the topic, but it seems like a lot of assumptions are being made with lots of variables unaccounted for.
- known 5y agoHope it's FUD; Otherwise humans may turn into zombies in the longer run :)
- egberts1 5y agoNot replicated, as that’s the new gold standard for medical whitepapers nowadays, peer-reviewed not withstanding.
- doggodaddo78 5y agoI'm wondering if the Moderna vaccine acts similarly, and innate training occurs mostly during the first shot seeing the VLPs and/or spike proteins. Then, perhaps more of the adaptive system generating IgGs is trained weeks after the first shot and/or reinforced during the second shot which triggers a large response, hence flu-like symptoms. Additional shots or pathogen exposure would likely not produce much of a response as it seems the innate system participates, in addition to the adaptive system. It might be because humoral and cellular elements straddle both systems, and perhaps they cooperate in some form even if they're operating in mostly different domains. On the fungi cytokine increased responses front, I wonder if the alterations in toll-like receptors heightens fungal allergies in addition to fighting fungal infections more efficiently.
- amai 5y ago"This also suggests a shift towards increased inflammatory responses to fungi following vaccination, say the researchers." Isn't that a good thing?
- totony 5y agoAFAIK no, since fungal infections are often treated with steroids/cortisone to lessen the inflammation.