2 ms·

No, I'm in the "prove that the thing you are claiming to happen actually happens" camp.

by Hamuko 5y ago

jchw 5y ago
I’m not claiming something happened — do you understand how chilling effects work? The threat of potentially massive fines with very little legal bounds for not following regulations that individuals basically can’t follow means that people who want to follow the rules but aren’t big enough don’t play anymore.
- Hamuko 5y ago
  So no one's life has ever been ruined by the GDPR? But you're still sure that this will happen? What is this based on?
  - jchw 5y ago
    I can get fined between 0 and €20 million at any moment because I am an individual and have no means to fully understand GDPR nor hire a DPO for my stupid personal websites. I make no money in ads or otherwise, but I am still treated like Epic Games if I collect sign up emails or logs. I only still run this stuff now because I’ve been running it for over a decade. I can tell you right now I am hesitant to run websites anymore. If you don’t understand how “ambiguous threat of a fine” isn’t calmed by “it hasn’t happened yet,” I can’t help you. What if my site was politically controversial? Should I trust all EU governments to act responsibly and not take advantage of their power ever?
    - anoncake 5y ago
      If there is a real danger that EU gouvernments start abusing their power like that, why is it only Americans that are afraid of it? Not EU citizens, who actually are familiar with how their states behave?
      - jchw 5y ago
        Clearly, nobody is afraid by it: I am getting buried insanely any time I criticize GDPR in any way. It is a thing you are not allowed to critique on HN. So I wouldn’t say americans are particularly more bothered by it. But why shouldn’t we be? I have no representation in EU law.
        anoncake 5y ago
        > Clearly, nobody is afraid by it: I am getting buried insanely any time I criticize GDPR in any way. It is a thing you are not allowed to critique on HN. Not if your criticisms are entirely unfounded and bordering on paranoia, no. > But why shouldn't we be? I have no representation in EU law. What? Do you think only EU citizens have rights in the EU?
        jchw 5y ago
        > Not if your criticisms are entirely unfounded and bordering on paranoia, no. I am not a lawyer and I do not have access to a lawyer. I can't afford it. Therefore, I have to assume that I simply do not have the expertise to understand GDPR fully. And unlike most laws, it is not a matter of "do things right and nothing will happen", and it has very vicious teeth on top of that. So from my PoV, the risk profile of GDPR is HUGE. If I'm running some pre-existing software stack written in the early 2000s, it simply doesn't have the necessary data provenance tracking that is needed to be GDPR compliant. For what it's worth, I make no money from things I run, not even on ads. Zilch. However, I've spent at least hours processing GDPR requests, and I have absolutely no idea if they are being done correctly, because I'm not a lawyer, and I do not have access to a lawyer. > What? Do you think only EU citizens have rights in the EU? I'm talking about representation in the sense of a democracy. I am part of the system in the U.S. - I can vote. I have no representation when it comes to laws made in the EU. The reverse applies too, but as far as I know there's nothing quite as scary as GDPR from the U.S. side.
        drdavid 5y ago
        I live in the US. I care not one iota about their cookie law and I'm not going to nag my visitors about cookies. Of course the site uses cookies. That's how you retain your settings from session to session. At the same time, I'll happily give you any data I have about you. I don't really collect anything. Your IP address gets logged and you give me an email address if you want to get a newsletter (on most sites of mine). I'll even happily delete your data, such as it is. I'm in the camp that says if I have your data I have to secure it. So, I'd rather not really collect more than I need. I don't even need to know your real name and you're more than welcome to use a fake email address for many things. But, no... No, I'm not going to nag my viewers with a cookie notice. I don't care if they come from the EU. I don't like the nag and I'm not going to nag you.
    - orwin 5y ago
      I don't understand. You can contest your fine if it is really too big, but honestly, at my last job we had one client project that got "caught". The CNIL (GDPR watchdog for France) was really helpfull, gave them 6 month to get into shape and proposed them a plan on what to do with the data to meet their goals. The kind of plan that cost a company 5-10k euros to elaborate (2 man/day of a good architect), and 10k (10 man/day of a junior db dev) to implement. So between a third and half the price to make the business legal again was basically paid by the CNIL. I think that's fair tbh.
      - jchw 5y ago
        That's the thing: I'm not a company, I'm a person, who happens to run websites, that make no money. A 10k euro fine would run me off the internet.
        danhor 5y ago
        The point of the comment is that the CNIL handled the part that the "good architect" would have needed to do, thus saving the company 5-10k. The company "only" needed to implement it, the other part was handled for them. The GP didn't mention fines, so I guess none were given out?
      - Aerroon 5y ago
        You're effectively saying that we don't really need limits on state power until the state has used that power. That's a pretty bold stance considering all the abuses of power modern states engage in. Why don't we just have an absolute monarch? It would make things much easier!

No, I'm in the "prove that the thing you are claiming to happen actually happens" camp.

by Hamuko 5y ago

No, I'm in the "prove that the thing you are claiming to happen actually happens" camp.

jchw 5y ago

I’m not claiming something happened — do you understand how chilling effects work? The threat of potentially massive fines with very little legal bounds for not following regulations that individuals basically can’t follow means that people who want to follow the rules but aren’t big enough don’t play anymore.

Hamuko 5y ago
So no one's life has ever been ruined by the GDPR? But you're still sure that this will happen? What is this based on?
- jchw 5y ago
  I can get fined between 0 and €20 million at any moment because I am an individual and have no means to fully understand GDPR nor hire a DPO for my stupid personal websites. I make no money in ads or otherwise, but I am still treated like Epic Games if I collect sign up emails or logs. I only still run this stuff now because I’ve been running it for over a decade. I can tell you right now I am hesitant to run websites anymore. If you don’t understand how “ambiguous threat of a fine” isn’t calmed by “it hasn’t happened yet,” I can’t help you. What if my site was politically controversial? Should I trust all EU governments to act responsibly and not take advantage of their power ever?
  - anoncake 5y ago
    If there is a real danger that EU gouvernments start abusing their power like that, why is it only Americans that are afraid of it? Not EU citizens, who actually are familiar with how their states behave?
    - jchw 5y ago
      Clearly, nobody is afraid by it: I am getting buried insanely any time I criticize GDPR in any way. It is a thing you are not allowed to critique on HN. So I wouldn’t say americans are particularly more bothered by it. But why shouldn’t we be? I have no representation in EU law.
      - anoncake 5y ago
        > Clearly, nobody is afraid by it: I am getting buried insanely any time I criticize GDPR in any way. It is a thing you are not allowed to critique on HN. Not if your criticisms are entirely unfounded and bordering on paranoia, no. > But why shouldn't we be? I have no representation in EU law. What? Do you think only EU citizens have rights in the EU?
        jchw 5y ago
        > Not if your criticisms are entirely unfounded and bordering on paranoia, no. I am not a lawyer and I do not have access to a lawyer. I can't afford it. Therefore, I have to assume that I simply do not have the expertise to understand GDPR fully. And unlike most laws, it is not a matter of "do things right and nothing will happen", and it has very vicious teeth on top of that. So from my PoV, the risk profile of GDPR is HUGE. If I'm running some pre-existing software stack written in the early 2000s, it simply doesn't have the necessary data provenance tracking that is needed to be GDPR compliant. For what it's worth, I make no money from things I run, not even on ads. Zilch. However, I've spent at least hours processing GDPR requests, and I have absolutely no idea if they are being done correctly, because I'm not a lawyer, and I do not have access to a lawyer. > What? Do you think only EU citizens have rights in the EU? I'm talking about representation in the sense of a democracy. I am part of the system in the U.S. - I can vote. I have no representation when it comes to laws made in the EU. The reverse applies too, but as far as I know there's nothing quite as scary as GDPR from the U.S. side.
      - drdavid 5y ago
        I live in the US. I care not one iota about their cookie law and I'm not going to nag my visitors about cookies. Of course the site uses cookies. That's how you retain your settings from session to session. At the same time, I'll happily give you any data I have about you. I don't really collect anything. Your IP address gets logged and you give me an email address if you want to get a newsletter (on most sites of mine). I'll even happily delete your data, such as it is. I'm in the camp that says if I have your data I have to secure it. So, I'd rather not really collect more than I need. I don't even need to know your real name and you're more than welcome to use a fake email address for many things. But, no... No, I'm not going to nag my viewers with a cookie notice. I don't care if they come from the EU. I don't like the nag and I'm not going to nag you.
  - orwin 5y ago
    I don't understand. You can contest your fine if it is really too big, but honestly, at my last job we had one client project that got "caught". The CNIL (GDPR watchdog for France) was really helpfull, gave them 6 month to get into shape and proposed them a plan on what to do with the data to meet their goals. The kind of plan that cost a company 5-10k euros to elaborate (2 man/day of a good architect), and 10k (10 man/day of a junior db dev) to implement. So between a third and half the price to make the business legal again was basically paid by the CNIL. I think that's fair tbh.
    - jchw 5y ago
      That's the thing: I'm not a company, I'm a person, who happens to run websites, that make no money. A 10k euro fine would run me off the internet.
      - danhor 5y ago
        The point of the comment is that the CNIL handled the part that the "good architect" would have needed to do, thus saving the company 5-10k. The company "only" needed to implement it, the other part was handled for them. The GP didn't mention fines, so I guess none were given out?
    - Aerroon 5y ago
      You're effectively saying that we don't really need limits on state power until the state has used that power. That's a pretty bold stance considering all the abuses of power modern states engage in. Why don't we just have an absolute monarch? It would make things much easier!