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I hope multiple App Stores don’t become a thing on iOS. The reason I like iPhone is that I am assured that apps I download from App Store are not shit and curat

by akg_67 5y ago

I hope multiple App Stores don’t become a thing on iOS. The reason I like iPhone is that I am assured that apps I download from App Store are not shit and curated by Apple. Apple has vested interest to keep apps made available to be clean and not going to compromise iPhone. Android play store, in comparison, is full of crap and free for all, basically buyer (or downloader) beware. Phone is used by too broad of user groups, from very young to very old, for apps to be left unchecked unlike laptops and desktops.

Nextgrid 5y ago
How do you explain that the majority of apps are contaminated by spyware like the Facebook SDK and dozens of other equivalents? (which for the record is in breach of the GDPR and Apple could be considered complicit if they allow this while at the same time requiring all apps to comply with local laws and has removed apps who break or could be used to break the law before) How do you explain scam apps that deliberately mislead users into signing up to a "free trial" subscription that renews at a ridiculous price 3 days later?
- akg_67 5y ago
  Have you looked at Google play store, in comparison? Apple is still doing 100x better job. 100% cleanliness is utopia but I will take an App Store that weeds out lot of contaminated apps than every other app being contaminated in some sort of way.
  - rjzzleep 5y ago
    I do think that the apple app store has better quality apps. But to be frank, those 3 day trial autorenew apps are definitely more common on iOS. There are so many highly rated iOS apps that look great and where you can't even get past the initial stage without having to sign up to a subscription without even know what it is.
  - detaro 5y ago
    Nobody is proposing that the Apple app store should go away, or that other stores shouldn't be curated. (E.g. exactly because the play store is as it is, on Android I go look at F-Droid first, because if it has something I trust it more)
  - calsy 5y ago
    Is someone taking the App Store from you? Does adding alternative options somehow corrupt the original App Store?
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      There could be an argument that allowing alternative stores would just mean every app would switch to those and be able to work around Apple's rules and act against consumers' best interests. However, the fact that Apple only enforces the rules when it benefits them as opposed to consumers (so they are happy to turn a blind eye to spyware, but will crack down immediately on alternative payment options) means that in practice I don't see it making the situation any worse.
      - Sargos 5y ago
        >There could be an argument that allowing alternative stores would just mean every app would switch to those Which is a ridiculous argument as the network effects and default preference status of the App Store mean it'll still be pretty much a requirement to publish there if you want any users.
        Nextgrid 5y ago
        Not really. Apple currently has the market power to keep Facebook and other similar scum at bay if they chose to (unfortunately, they're not doing anywhere near enough on this front). Opening the floodgates to alternate stores would simply mean every mainstream service out there would require you to use that alternate store (isolated from Apple's enforcement) where all kinds of nastiness is permitted.
- hmate9 5y ago
  I would match rather sign up for a subscription through the iOS ecosystem, where I can easily and realisably cancel that subscription through Apple themselves as opposed to entering my credit card info and figuring out how to cancel for each and every application differently.
  - saurik 5y ago
    FWIW, people usually like to support lots of payment options, particularly ones that already have the customer's payment details on file and that the customer likes using, so as long as you are OK with the realization that people who pay not through Apple are going to pay like 10-25% less (depending on any number of factors, as Apple is honestly offering non-0 value) than you (which I honestly doubt, but you need to remember that a key part of this isn't the functionality but the cost: a ton of the money you are paying is just going to Apple right now) I would be shocked if companies didn't throw in Apple's IAP as a (more expensive) option. Like: for my store (Cydia), I never required developers to use my payment options (as that would be a horrible and anit-competitive thing to do) but they did anyway because users liked them so much and they were easy for the developer and I actually solved problems they had (license transfer, some of the customer support, etc.).
  - kalleboo 5y ago
    Personally I would prefer to sign up to a subscription via PayPal, where I can easily manage the subscription though a web site instead opening the "Music" app (!?!) and navigating through that nightmare
    - moenzuel 5y ago
      I am confused, are you saying that the only way to manage your subscriptions in iOS is via the music app and not the App Store?
hmate9 5y ago
Im not sure why you got downvoted. Its a legit opinion. I can see the argument for why this is better for iOS users, but it is also painfully obvious how it benefits Apple's monopoly and works against app developers.
- akg_67 5y ago
  I agree that it disproportionately benefits Apple but alternative is free for all like Android and all responsibilities fall on end user (not possible when you have from very young users to very old users, both unsophisticated and sophisticated users).
  - emsy 5y ago
    I just don’t buy the argument that end customers will lose out. The Apple AppStore will still be the default and available. People that want alternatives can get them at their own peril (like responsible adults, can you imagine?). And what percentage of people actually use alt app stores on Android?
    - foolmeonce 5y ago
      Further, the Play store is evidence against supporting the company store concept at all and not an explanation for why an exclusive one should be allowed if it doesn't immediately induce vomiting.
    - codyb 5y ago
      I’m surprised fragmentation isn’t mentioned. With multiple app stores, developers may not release to the Apple app store any more. Causing users to either use other app stores or miss out on apps that would previously been in the Apple store. Causing them to be forced to evaluate the trustworthiness of each new app store they have to use. Which will inevitably lead to some less tech savvy users having their information phished out from their phones. Personally, it sounds like a hassle to me. I’m a big fan of the walled garden approach because I have zero desire to evaluate app store’s credibility and don’t feel I’m missing out on anything that could be side loaded, but then again, I only use my phone for communication, dating, photos, craigslist, and hackernews lately.
hpaavola 5y ago
"I hope multiple App Stores don’t become a thing on iOS. The reason I like iPhone is that I am assured that apps I download from App Store are not shit and curated by Apple." Then dont install those other app stores and only rely on apples curated list, if other app stores ever become a thing on ios.
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  It'll end up similarly to macOS AppStore. Developers will avoid it, so user will be forced to use other stores to make his phone useful.
- hpaavola 5y ago
  vbezhenar, for some reason there is no reply link visible in your commenr, so have to reply like this. "It'll end up similarly to macOS AppStore. Developers will avoid it, so user will be forced to use other stores to make his phone useful." So, kinda like on Androi... No, wait. It wont. Other stores will be in the margins likd on Android.
  - maccard 5y ago
    Have you seen the prompt you get when you install an app outside the play store, (and even worse give it permission to install other apps)? Epic have made instructions on how to do it [0], it's a four step process to be able to install the game that involves changing two system default settings that both warn you not to do what you're about to do. [0] https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/mobile/android/new-device https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/mobile/android/new-...
    - hpaavola 5y ago
      I'm happy F-Droid user, so yes, i know the process.
- maccard 5y ago
  The reality of what ends up happening is you end up with an app store per publisher, and needing to manage your payment details with each one individually, and deal with each stores handling of your data. I don't want to install the NYT store to download the nyt cooking app so they can take a bigger cut on their subscription. The reason this hasn't happened on Android is because you get a scary warning when you install apps from other sources.
galuggus 5y ago
China has had multiple app storeson both ios (through widespread jailbreaking- the shop you buy your iphine from will install it for you)and android. The experience is very poor. They are full of scammy, pirated apps(although they do have emulators) The majority of users just want their phone to work.
rdedev 5y ago
I don't get this argument. How can an alternative app Store affect the quality of the Apple app Store ? The alternate app Store is not gonna come installed by default. No one is gonna mistake the alternative app Store for the apple one. Apple is gonna make sure of that. Apple can even put up loads of warnings and dark UI stuff when installing an alternate app Store to dissuade the "noob" users.
- 0xEFF 5y ago
  Suppose you install a messaging app to talk to your friend. How do you know they installed their copy from the good App Store and not the bad one?
  - yosito 5y ago
    Your friend's messaging app is not installing apps on your phone, so it doesn't matter (to you).
  - rdedev 5y ago
    Most messaging apps are centralized. Some form of server side checking can be easily added to make sure the client is legit and not tampered with. Same form of checking thing if it's P2P but it would be very cumbersome. Now it is possible that someones has cracked the encrypted messaged payload and figured out how to fool the client authenticity checking part but at that point you are probably dealing with a state actor and even apple with their secure app Store cannot save you.
    - w7 5y ago
      That's not state actor level of effort. Kids do that stuff for video games.
  - Sargos 5y ago
    Why do you care what software your friend runs? Why do you feel the need to dictate what software someone else runs? This is especially weird because your username is 0xEFF which initially made me think Electronic Frontier Foundation but it's definitely not that.
simion314 5y ago
>I hope multiple App Stores don’t become a thing on iOS. I hope Apple will also force only 1 browser, 1 text editor, 1 video player, 1 search engine, 1 bank/payment system. I hate PayPal so everyone should use Apple Pay because I want so, please Apple force them all to use what I like! /sarcasm
- Sargos 5y ago
  I wish this was actually sarcasm for most people. I legitimately don't understand why this group of people believe this is a good thing.
kitsunesoba 5y ago
What I fear is that as a reaction to Apple's recent moves on privacy (tracking transparency, requiring user consent prior to tracking, etc), Facebook is going to spin up its own App Store without such rules where user data is a free for all. This wouldn't be a threat in itself, but having control of heavy hitters like the Facebook app, Instagram, and WhatsApp among others, they could drive traffic levels that no third-party App Store has ever seen overnight. They can also afford to buy other heavy-hitting exclusives, and some data hungry devs would likely come on board with no incentive at all. This would be a terrible outcome. If iOS is to support third party app stores, I'd rather it be after legislation is passed that effectively enforces Apple's App Store privacy policies at a federal level.
- hamandcheese 5y ago
  Aren’t Apples policies enforced via app sandboxing though? Why would that be any different for third party apps?
  - ratww 5y ago
    Not really taking sides here, but sandboxing is not a panacea, unfortunately. There's also fingerprinting, abusing bugs in the system, faking system password fields, forcing the user to disable restrictions to the app so it works. There isn't much of a purely technological solution.
ssaturn 5y ago
Then don't download apps that aren't from the app store, no one is forcing you to. But dont restrict choices of users who want to.

by akg_67 5y ago

Nextgrid 5y ago

How do you explain that the majority of apps are contaminated by spyware like the Facebook SDK and dozens of other equivalents? (which for the record is in breach of the GDPR and Apple could be considered complicit if they allow this while at the same time requiring all apps to comply with local laws and has removed apps who break or could be used to break the law before) How do you explain scam apps that deliberately mislead users into signing up to a "free trial" subscription that renews at a ridiculous price 3 days later?

akg_67 5y ago
Have you looked at Google play store, in comparison? Apple is still doing 100x better job. 100% cleanliness is utopia but I will take an App Store that weeds out lot of contaminated apps than every other app being contaminated in some sort of way.
- rjzzleep 5y ago
  I do think that the apple app store has better quality apps. But to be frank, those 3 day trial autorenew apps are definitely more common on iOS. There are so many highly rated iOS apps that look great and where you can't even get past the initial stage without having to sign up to a subscription without even know what it is.
- detaro 5y ago
  Nobody is proposing that the Apple app store should go away, or that other stores shouldn't be curated. (E.g. exactly because the play store is as it is, on Android I go look at F-Droid first, because if it has something I trust it more)
- calsy 5y ago
  Is someone taking the App Store from you? Does adding alternative options somehow corrupt the original App Store?
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    There could be an argument that allowing alternative stores would just mean every app would switch to those and be able to work around Apple's rules and act against consumers' best interests. However, the fact that Apple only enforces the rules when it benefits them as opposed to consumers (so they are happy to turn a blind eye to spyware, but will crack down immediately on alternative payment options) means that in practice I don't see it making the situation any worse.
    - Sargos 5y ago
      >There could be an argument that allowing alternative stores would just mean every app would switch to those Which is a ridiculous argument as the network effects and default preference status of the App Store mean it'll still be pretty much a requirement to publish there if you want any users.
      - Nextgrid 5y ago
        Not really. Apple currently has the market power to keep Facebook and other similar scum at bay if they chose to (unfortunately, they're not doing anywhere near enough on this front). Opening the floodgates to alternate stores would simply mean every mainstream service out there would require you to use that alternate store (isolated from Apple's enforcement) where all kinds of nastiness is permitted.
hmate9 5y ago
I would match rather sign up for a subscription through the iOS ecosystem, where I can easily and realisably cancel that subscription through Apple themselves as opposed to entering my credit card info and figuring out how to cancel for each and every application differently.
- saurik 5y ago
  FWIW, people usually like to support lots of payment options, particularly ones that already have the customer's payment details on file and that the customer likes using, so as long as you are OK with the realization that people who pay not through Apple are going to pay like 10-25% less (depending on any number of factors, as Apple is honestly offering non-0 value) than you (which I honestly doubt, but you need to remember that a key part of this isn't the functionality but the cost: a ton of the money you are paying is just going to Apple right now) I would be shocked if companies didn't throw in Apple's IAP as a (more expensive) option. Like: for my store (Cydia), I never required developers to use my payment options (as that would be a horrible and anit-competitive thing to do) but they did anyway because users liked them so much and they were easy for the developer and I actually solved problems they had (license transfer, some of the customer support, etc.).
- kalleboo 5y ago
  Personally I would prefer to sign up to a subscription via PayPal, where I can easily manage the subscription though a web site instead opening the "Music" app (!?!) and navigating through that nightmare
  - moenzuel 5y ago
    I am confused, are you saying that the only way to manage your subscriptions in iOS is via the music app and not the App Store?

hmate9 5y ago

Im not sure why you got downvoted. Its a legit opinion. I can see the argument for why this is better for iOS users, but it is also painfully obvious how it benefits Apple's monopoly and works against app developers.

akg_67 5y ago
I agree that it disproportionately benefits Apple but alternative is free for all like Android and all responsibilities fall on end user (not possible when you have from very young users to very old users, both unsophisticated and sophisticated users).
- emsy 5y ago
  I just don’t buy the argument that end customers will lose out. The Apple AppStore will still be the default and available. People that want alternatives can get them at their own peril (like responsible adults, can you imagine?). And what percentage of people actually use alt app stores on Android?
  - foolmeonce 5y ago
    Further, the Play store is evidence against supporting the company store concept at all and not an explanation for why an exclusive one should be allowed if it doesn't immediately induce vomiting.
  - codyb 5y ago
    I’m surprised fragmentation isn’t mentioned. With multiple app stores, developers may not release to the Apple app store any more. Causing users to either use other app stores or miss out on apps that would previously been in the Apple store. Causing them to be forced to evaluate the trustworthiness of each new app store they have to use. Which will inevitably lead to some less tech savvy users having their information phished out from their phones. Personally, it sounds like a hassle to me. I’m a big fan of the walled garden approach because I have zero desire to evaluate app store’s credibility and don’t feel I’m missing out on anything that could be side loaded, but then again, I only use my phone for communication, dating, photos, craigslist, and hackernews lately.

hpaavola 5y ago

"I hope multiple App Stores don’t become a thing on iOS. The reason I like iPhone is that I am assured that apps I download from App Store are not shit and curated by Apple." Then dont install those other app stores and only rely on apples curated list, if other app stores ever become a thing on ios.

vbezhenar 5y ago
It'll end up similarly to macOS AppStore. Developers will avoid it, so user will be forced to use other stores to make his phone useful.
hpaavola 5y ago
vbezhenar, for some reason there is no reply link visible in your commenr, so have to reply like this. "It'll end up similarly to macOS AppStore. Developers will avoid it, so user will be forced to use other stores to make his phone useful." So, kinda like on Androi... No, wait. It wont. Other stores will be in the margins likd on Android.
- maccard 5y ago
  Have you seen the prompt you get when you install an app outside the play store, (and even worse give it permission to install other apps)? Epic have made instructions on how to do it [0], it's a four step process to be able to install the game that involves changing two system default settings that both warn you not to do what you're about to do. [0] https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/mobile/android/new-device https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/mobile/android/new-...
  - hpaavola 5y ago
    I'm happy F-Droid user, so yes, i know the process.
maccard 5y ago
The reality of what ends up happening is you end up with an app store per publisher, and needing to manage your payment details with each one individually, and deal with each stores handling of your data. I don't want to install the NYT store to download the nyt cooking app so they can take a bigger cut on their subscription. The reason this hasn't happened on Android is because you get a scary warning when you install apps from other sources.

galuggus 5y ago

China has had multiple app storeson both ios (through widespread jailbreaking- the shop you buy your iphine from will install it for you)and android. The experience is very poor. They are full of scammy, pirated apps(although they do have emulators) The majority of users just want their phone to work.

rdedev 5y ago

I don't get this argument. How can an alternative app Store affect the quality of the Apple app Store ? The alternate app Store is not gonna come installed by default. No one is gonna mistake the alternative app Store for the apple one. Apple is gonna make sure of that. Apple can even put up loads of warnings and dark UI stuff when installing an alternate app Store to dissuade the "noob" users.

0xEFF 5y ago
Suppose you install a messaging app to talk to your friend. How do you know they installed their copy from the good App Store and not the bad one?
- yosito 5y ago
  Your friend's messaging app is not installing apps on your phone, so it doesn't matter (to you).
- rdedev 5y ago
  Most messaging apps are centralized. Some form of server side checking can be easily added to make sure the client is legit and not tampered with. Same form of checking thing if it's P2P but it would be very cumbersome. Now it is possible that someones has cracked the encrypted messaged payload and figured out how to fool the client authenticity checking part but at that point you are probably dealing with a state actor and even apple with their secure app Store cannot save you.
  - w7 5y ago
    That's not state actor level of effort. Kids do that stuff for video games.
- Sargos 5y ago
  Why do you care what software your friend runs? Why do you feel the need to dictate what software someone else runs? This is especially weird because your username is 0xEFF which initially made me think Electronic Frontier Foundation but it's definitely not that.

simion314 5y ago

>I hope multiple App Stores don’t become a thing on iOS. I hope Apple will also force only 1 browser, 1 text editor, 1 video player, 1 search engine, 1 bank/payment system. I hate PayPal so everyone should use Apple Pay because I want so, please Apple force them all to use what I like! /sarcasm

Sargos 5y ago
I wish this was actually sarcasm for most people. I legitimately don't understand why this group of people believe this is a good thing.

kitsunesoba 5y ago

What I fear is that as a reaction to Apple's recent moves on privacy (tracking transparency, requiring user consent prior to tracking, etc), Facebook is going to spin up its own App Store without such rules where user data is a free for all. This wouldn't be a threat in itself, but having control of heavy hitters like the Facebook app, Instagram, and WhatsApp among others, they could drive traffic levels that no third-party App Store has ever seen overnight. They can also afford to buy other heavy-hitting exclusives, and some data hungry devs would likely come on board with no incentive at all. This would be a terrible outcome. If iOS is to support third party app stores, I'd rather it be after legislation is passed that effectively enforces Apple's App Store privacy policies at a federal level.

hamandcheese 5y ago
Aren’t Apples policies enforced via app sandboxing though? Why would that be any different for third party apps?
- ratww 5y ago
  Not really taking sides here, but sandboxing is not a panacea, unfortunately. There's also fingerprinting, abusing bugs in the system, faking system password fields, forcing the user to disable restrictions to the app so it works. There isn't much of a purely technological solution.

ssaturn 5y ago

Then don't download apps that aren't from the app store, no one is forcing you to. But dont restrict choices of users who want to.