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Or just delete Facebook apps.
by saos 5y ago
Or just delete Facebook apps.
- speedgoose 5y agoUnfortunately it's not that simple for everyone. I personally would lose contact with a lot of people if I delete Messenger or Whatsapp. On all my contacts, I have two on Signal, zero on Matrix.
- ignoramous 5y ago> I personally would lose contact with a lot of people if I delete Messenger or Whatsapp See Beeper (bridges to various chat apps based on Matrix.org): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25848278 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25848278
- speedgoose 5y agoWhat's the value of such a bridge if Facebook still gets my messages ? And this doesn't support video calls.
- soziawa 5y agoThis doesn't provide end-to-end-encryption for WhatsApp so I'd actually call this worse than just using WhatsApp in the first place. Facebook gets all the data and your messages are stored somewhere (either at Beeper or on your own server) as plaintext.
- ekianjo 5y agoYou think Facebook does not have access to Whatsapp messages ? Would be very surprised if thats not the case.
- ignoramous 5y agoOne's speculation, the other's a certainty? Good thing that Beeper lets you self-host their (AGPLd) bridges.
- shawnz 5y agoFacebook doesn't have access to WhatsApp messages. WhatsApp uses the same end-to-end encryption protocol as Signal. We know this is true because the app has been extensively reverse engineered to create these third party clients among other reasons.
- baq 5y agoWhatsApp client is made by Facebook. It must see plaintext so it can put it on the screen. If it doesn’t send it anywhere yet, good - but it’s borrowed time.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y agoWhatsApp is closed source, so you have no idea what it's doing. And they can push an update doing whatever they wish to you at any moment. You have to rely on Facebook pinky-swearing that it is what they say it is. And I promise you it isn't what they say it is.
- gentleman11 5y agoYou can’t promise things like that without having good references or proof. “Promise” might be a stronger word than you meant
- shawnz 5y agoBeing open source isn't necessary or sufficient to be able to audit a piece of software. Software can be audited even if it's closed source (for example by reverse engineering, although it's more difficult), and even if it's open source it might still be impractically difficult for non-experts to audit.
- ignoramous 5y agoA 5B install-base would invite all sorts of experts to review an OSS codebase, I'm sure.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago"more difficult" is an understatement! I agree that FOSS doesn't solve all ills. It's a necessary step, though.
- soziawa 5y agoYes, they very publicly state that they do not have access and I have yet to see a reason to not believe them in that regard. All big Facebook data leaks and hacks have just exploited not very well known APIs or badly set privacy settings. But nothing that was secret.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y agoThey are lying when they say this. I promise you Facebook MITMs WhatsApp communications for oppressive regimes.
- heinrich5991 5y agoSource?
- tgragnato 5y agoI think someone caught the app dumping private keys to crashlogs.whatsapp.net But a MITM should still be visible More details?
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y agoFor example: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/26/iran-blocks-signal-messaging-app-after-whatsapp-exodus https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/26/iran-blocks-signal-... Q: Why would Iran block Signal but not WhatsApp if they actually use the exact same protocol? A: Because Facebook has cut a deal with the regime to give them access to things they could not get access to with Signal I suppose it could be that blocking WhatsApp would cause too much disruption, so the Iranian regime tolerates it for now, but I put much more weight on Facebook just rolling over. There are other instances of WhatsApp being allowed and other allegedly as-secure platforms being banned. It could be chance or network effects, but my guess is that Facebook has built in tools to comply with those regimes' spying demands. Perhaps they even push locale-specific versions of the app.
- fooker 5y agoLaw enforcement has access to a list of people who forwarded particular links or media. This indicates that e2e has some bypasses or exceptions. It would be pretty much impossible to unearth the details though.
- jonplackett 5y agoThey have the metadata I presume - who you text, how much and when, and that's probably pretty valuable in itself. Even if you put in no personal data to FB at all they create a ghost profile that will be very accurate based on who you are connected to.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y agoBut it frees you from having to have on your phone sketchy closed-source software from a an evil tech empire for whom you are the product. That's worth a lot. And you can self-host matrix bridges that will do this.
- l1ghthouse 5y agoIs Facebook messenger not available in the browser?
- konspence 5y agoNot really. Have you tried it? It doesn't really work. I can't even figure out how to use it from my mobile device without installing an app.
- JD557 5y agoThat's weird... I have tried it (I use it a lot on PC) and it works just fine. It even has some extra features, like LaTeX support. I guess you mean it doesn't work on mobile browsers? (Never tried that)
- MaxBarraclough 5y agoPC is different. They deliberately removed messaging from the mobile web interface, see my reply to konspence.
- fwn 5y agoMessaging was still available for a long time through mbasic.facebook.com up until very recently. They removed that feature at the time their last big messenger outage happened. messenger.com still works on Android Firefox as long as you switch to desktop mode. Not sure for how long though, as it looks as if they are constantly sabotaging their platform. ..and it shows: Facebook Messenger feels far less relevant than maybe ten years ago. In my German peer group everyone now uses either WhatsApp or Signal for private and Teams+email for work related communication.
- taneq 5y agoStill works for me, unless they’ve taken it down in the last couple of hours..:
- 5y ago
- f6v 5y agoPeople used to send emails.
- pimlottc 5y agoAnd they don't now. Which is why it's useful to be on platforms that people do use.
- l33tman 5y agoThe point f6v was making (I think) was that the same argument above, against using something else, was used by the email users of the day ("everybody is using email, why should I use ICQ or MSN etc."). But then eventually the tide changes. It's just difficult and lonely to be the first :)
- benhurmarcel 5y agoPeople used to send letters.
- quickthrower2 5y agoPeople used to live in close proximity, needing no telecommunication
- saos 5y agoOr call and text…
- meristohm 5y agoPeople used to send writing on paper in an envelope. Some still do. Perhaps one thing that’s not being said is the degree we each care about communication relative to how we communicate; this is a very personal topic. I am one who deleted all social media (except HN; joined recently because the stress of it is lower and I still like to share) and one who is comfortable with the slow pace of letters and email-as-letters. I’m of the Star Wars generation, growing up with computers and still knowing what is was like to place orders by calling on a rotary phone the number on the back of the catalog.
- woutr_be 5y agoI really hate it when people say “just delete Facebook apps”. I would lose touch with almost everyone I know. They either use Facebook or WhatsApp, I can’t justify deleting either.
- hparadiz 5y agoThey make no where near as much money on you from WhatsApp as they do from Facebook.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- cr1895 5y agoYou can continue to use Facebook with the mobile website…the point of the parent comment was to just not use the app itself.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y agoIt is though. It's astonishing how little people are willing to sacrifice for their ideals. If you don't have an issue with Facebook then disregard and continue using their services. If you do have a problem then try being the change you want to see. Tend your garden. You cannot control other people but you can control yourself.
- seoaeu 5y ago"Be the change you want to see" doesn't really work for society level collective action problems. My concern with Facebook isn't that they have too much information about me, it is that they know too much about my country's citizens in aggregate (and thus can manipulate them). Whether I opt out has a real impact on me, but zero impact on whether they can run disinformation campaigns and swing elections.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago>Whether I opt out has a real impact on me, but zero impact on whether they can run disinformation campaigns and swing elections. Being the change you want to see doesn't automatically mean the world changes. It just means live with principles regardless of external factors. You don't like Facebook? Then don't use Facebook. It's as simple as that. Others can take it or leave it. I just see it as people complaining about Facebook while continuing to use Facebook so it must not be a very big deal to them.
- chickenmonkey 5y agoThe two actions people can take are: 1. Delete Facebook apps, Whatsapp and IG. This can have low to high utility loss for you, but has negligible effect on Facebook. It would have a bad effect for me, who has many family members and friends connected on whatsapp and needs whatsapp to connect to anyone whom I meet in my country. 2. Lead a movement to switch away from these apps. This has an insanely high overhead, and requires significant organisation of people and a large individual commitment. This would have a significant effect on Facebook. This is how I view the problem. This is not an example of people being unwilling to act on their ideals. It's a situation where acting on their ideals would cause them a significant burden with no effect, and causing the intended change would require ridiculously large effort.
- slothtrop 5y agoUse the web-app version on Firefox with the "Facebook container" extension, and just add an icon to the home-screen that links to it. (Note this is for fb not WhatsApp, in which case you'd have to consider alternatives like Telegram and Signal)
- gentleman11 5y agoI stopped using Facebook and just started phoning and texting people a few years ago. Almost all the contact you have with people on Facebook is fake, it’s mostly sharing memes and news. It’s more personal to do that over the phone. I think I’m closer with almost everyone since leaving Facebook. Most of my contacts have installed signal of their own accord at some point too which is weird but pleasant
- swiftcoder 5y agoThis probably works ok if all of your friends live in the same country as you (and that country still widely uses SMS). However it turns out that international calls/texts are still an expensive minefield, and folks who move around internationally don't have stable phone numbers (since those are tied to country). And as a result, WhatsApp/Messenger is the only viable communication method for a lot of folks.
- manquer 5y agoIf all your friends use WhatsApp/Messenger sure that works. However if you have friends in China you need WeChat, in some places Line is the main platform. Some people tend to use Google Hangouts or FaceTime only . A lot of friends do not want use any FB products and will use Signal/Telegram etc Even if SMS is expensive, email is still quite free. It works almost like SMS/messaging on phone, you get push notifications on your phone and you respond. I move around about countries every few months, keeping a VOIP/Skype phone number as the number anyone can reach you at works for me, while my local number is more for getting an internet connection and occasionally for signups to local apps (like rideshares, food delivery etc) that reject some VoIP numbers .
- corobo 5y agoI ditched fb with the understanding that comms will be difficult for a bit. Family and friends adapted, most without prompting. I'd say try it but be prepared for an ego check if nobody follows haha
- tracer4201 5y agoWith respect, I don’t understand your comment. You’re saying Facebook provides you utility. Well, FBs business model is they provide you a service in exchange for your data. You have the option of engaging in that transaction — using their service in exchange for your data. Or you have the option of not using their service. Legally, I’m not sure how you can have it both ways, aside from either FB offering a paid tier (you pay cash instead of providing your data), or we shut FB down entirely. What exactly do you believe is the solution? Personally, I think social media is more harm than good. I don’t want to ban or control social media companies (my local officials aren’t even capable of keeping drugs and homeless addicts off school grounds, let alone dictating internet regulation). My personal choice is to not use it.
- p49k 5y agoIn some countries, you can't perform essential tasks such as booking a doctor's appointment without Whatsapp. It's not that simple.
- DyslexicAtheist 5y agonot a single day goes by without the company taking a crap in some corner. my proposal is more radical. rally to ban FB in that country. incentivize local companies to come up with alternative solutions. zuck and his comrades have no business poking their noses into foreigners medical data anyway. it would also avoid less taxes being lost on facebooks Double Irish tax evasion. treat them like the cancer they are. don't celebrate FB engineers and call them out for the useful idiots they are.
- laurent92 5y agoOr ban it from iPhone for one or two versions so they stop this one tracking. Then repeat often enough that people start thinking it is uncertain that FB/WA be available, and don’t require WA to book a doctor’s appointment.
- golergka 5y ago> incentivize local companies to come up with alternative solutions. Living in a country where local social networks are more popular with general population than foreign ones (Russia), I'd rather prefer FAANG. "Local companies" may sound good because the word "local" has some nice connotations, like your "local store" or "local coffee shop". But in reality, "local companies" do all the bad stuff that Facebook does, and also go above and beyond to cooperate with the state against the protesters or any political dissidents. And they're also not as good at writing software, so these networks have significantly worse design and a lot more bugs. There are millions of example where people want to solve a problem, think that they will be able to do it with government regulation, and end up with a situation that is much worse. But even among them, this is a case where it could only make situation worse. And much, much worse.
- DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
- lilSebastian 5y agoApps, account. Bin it all.
- sundvor 5y agoYep. And this is easier now too. Disabled my FB account whilst leaving FB messenger open is possible now, so that finally worked well for me. Can't change my profile picture in the Messenger app though, so would need to reactivate if I felt the urgent need to.