10 ms·

Hi all! I'm David, CEO @ Retool. I'm looking in to this right now and will update my comment here with a response in the next two hours. Edit: just did a bit o

by dvdhsu 5y ago

Hi all! I'm David, CEO @ Retool. I'm looking in to this right now and will update my comment here with a response in the next two hours. Edit: just did a bit of digging. It looks like we have a Retool template that has some fake data in it (https://retool.com/api-generator/ https://retool.com/api-generator/). This is an app built in Retool, and has a few thousand rows of hard-coded data. Most of this fake data is self-generated, but we used the faker.js library (https://github.com/marak/Faker.js/ https://github.com/marak/Faker.js/) to generate three datatypes: IP address, avatar, and industry. This MIT licensed library, when used, creates data that links directly to fakercloud (https://cdn.fakercloud.com/avatars/ https://cdn.fakercloud.com/avatars/). Here is the code itself: https://github.com/Marak/faker.js/blob/master/lib/internet.js#L15 https://github.com/Marak/faker.js/blob/master/lib/internet.j..., and here is a demo that shows the library generating those links: https://rawgit.com/Marak/faker.js/master/examples/browser/index.html https://rawgit.com/Marak/faker.js/master/examples/browser/in.... I just spoke to the engineers who worked on this project, and we are sorry for including links to fakercloud. This wasn’t intentional, and we just pushed a commit removing all avatars from the template. This is already deployed. I hope you all can understand why we trusted the data generated by the MIT licensed project, and didn’t think it would link to anything proprietary. I myself am an engineer (and avid HN reader, as evinced by how I found this while reading HN on a Sat night), understand Marak’s frustration, and agree that monetizing OSS is hard. While we’ve already contributed around $10k to various libraries we use (https://opencollective.com/retool https://opencollective.com/retool), including faker.js, Babel, ESLint, and JSON Schema, I’m going to see if there is more we can do. We’ll be writing a blog post about it this week and I will follow up with more next steps. I wonder whether there is a better way of sponsoring OSS, other than just donating dollars every month? (Maybe we could commit one engineering-day per month for contributing back to OSS libraries we use heavily?) In the meantime, we'll certainly continue sponsoring all the libraries we’re sponsoring already, including faker.js. (Also: I’m sorry to Marak for not responding to his email re. acquiring Faker. More in this child thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27252420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27252420)

Exuma 5y ago
finds popcorn
mofosyne 5y ago
Looking forward to your response. Hopefully it was just a misunderstanding.
spiritplumber 5y ago
Yay for dialogue
christiansakai 5y ago
Ah, damage control mode activated.
- judge2020 5y ago
  If it’s rectified upon the CEO finding out about it and he makes a true apology, and implements policy to prevent it from happening again, that’s better than just not saying anything and not doing anything to rectify the situation; however, most people here would agree that doing so doesn’t excuse the fact that he let it happen in the first place.
ticklemyelmo 5y ago
>Hi Marak, this is interesting! Give me a day to work on this; I will reach back out soon! You promised this last time. Why is a post on Hacker News any different than a private email?
- notwhereyouare 5y ago
  Because now it’s public he failed to respond
- Axsuul 5y ago
  C'mon, give the guy a break - people get busy.
  - watwut 5y ago
    Is there even any duty to respond to unsolicited sales pitches? I would assume it is fine to ignore those.
    - Axsuul 5y ago
      Not at all since no one owes "you" anything. It's "your" duty to pursue it (e.g. endless follow ups, get connected through others)
- paxys 5y ago
  The email he ignored was a random sales pitch. Nowhere did the author mention his actual problem.
- dvdhsu 5y ago
  When Marak sent me the email, I read it as a "Hi, I built Faker, might you be interested in acquiring it?". I responded with a "yes, that could be interesting, give me a day to work on this". In the end, we decided that acquiring Faker didn't make sense, and I'm sorry to Marak for not sending a follow-up email telling him we weren't interested. In this case, the content is different (i.e. we are potentially abusing OSS), which is why I’m responding to this. (FWIW, I typically receive 50 - 100 sales emails every day. I do try and reply to the ones that look interesting, but I do forget to follow-up sometimes if we're not interested! This does not excuse my behavior in this particular case, and I’m sorry to Marak for not following up.)
mdni007 5y ago
Ooo
bussierem 5y ago
David you're probably just getting nonstop flak for this and as the CEO of the "big bad" here just let me say that I feel genuinely bad for you. Whatever conversation you have to have behind the scenes is a truly stupid thing to have to do in this situation. The CDN thing is dumb and maybe arguably not how this should have been done but your team and their work doesn't deserve to be villified for doing basically nothing wrong other than a very simple email miscommunication. Good luck with this all.
no_wizard 5y ago
This is the exact thing I was hoping would happen when I posted this
- throwaway_25434 5y ago
  I don’t see why having the CEO of a company justify themselves, and bear the burden of proof, for using an MIT library would be a desired outcome.
  - refulgentis 5y ago
    Put another way, he forgot to get back to the guy whose project/hosting space his company was using, for a whole month, and he came back with a classy response and decent amount of detail. Everybody wins. Except the people who think there's a court in session here and are worried us plebians are putting _CEOs of companies_ on trial
    - klohto 5y ago
      Atleast put some effort into reading all the material if you want to shame somebody. 1) Initial email was sales pitch that did not touch the problem at all. Which retool responded to by the way. 2) CDN is hardcoded into the JS library. Why would you even do that and then shame people? If it’s against the ToS then you need people point to the ToS first. It’s the author’s fault here. 3) MIT license. How many times do we have to go through this. Retool could just fuck off but even before this witch hunt began, they were already donating. 4) Some human communication explaining the problem wouldn’t hurt. Personally I’m more likely to turn down using faker.js now.
      - serial_dev 5y ago
        This is a very good overview of the situation. It's sad how Retool's name was dragged through the mud for daring to use an MIT licensed open source project.
        5y ago
opensores11 5y ago
Hey David, I don't think your company did anything wrong. The CDN is hard codes into the library as far as I can tell. Ultimately there are two separate issues. 1. The CDN thing, of course. 2. The open source monetization never ending problem. The first can be fixed with a simple change to the library. The second your company is already trying to help in part. Ultimately open source is not easily monetizable...
ghoomketu 5y ago
They voluntarily donated $2000 to faker.js as I can see from opencollective link. It definitely looks like they love supporting open-source and not trying to rip-off small devs.
- cutemonster 5y ago
  It's a bit odd that if they hadn't done that, faker.js wouldn't have found out that they were using it that much, and couldn't have sent them the sales pitch in the first place. In an a bit odd way, this time, donating to OSS, resulted in "bad press" at least for a while. I hope things will end in a good way, somehow, for everyone
mpoteat 5y ago
Hey David, I really feel for you. These PR-esque situations are never fun, but I think you’ve done an excellent job of handling this. I believe there is a bias people have of viewing (somewhat ironically) things in terms of a “David vs. Goliath” lens. Everyone loves rooting for the little guy, even when the little guy is objectively incorrect. Hope your weekend goes better than it has been so far! Retool is an excellent product by the way :)
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  I mean the thing is this is more like David vs. a sergeant in the Philistine army than Goliath, Goliath would have to be Amazon level.
cudgy 5y ago
“Maybe we could commit one engineering-day per month for contributing back to OSS libraries we use heavily” This could be more disruptive than helpful as very few engineers would contribute much one day a month. Would you hire a developer for 1 day per month? They would more likely burden the experienced developers with questions and poor code submissions that need to be reviewed and then forget what they learned a month before.
- victoray 5y ago
  You're right, but how about this case: If the company has about 30 devs, so 1 dev can spend 1 month for this library, no one else needed?

by dvdhsu 5y ago

Exuma 5y ago

finds popcorn

mofosyne 5y ago

Looking forward to your response. Hopefully it was just a misunderstanding.

spiritplumber 5y ago

Yay for dialogue

christiansakai 5y ago

Ah, damage control mode activated.

judge2020 5y ago
If it’s rectified upon the CEO finding out about it and he makes a true apology, and implements policy to prevent it from happening again, that’s better than just not saying anything and not doing anything to rectify the situation; however, most people here would agree that doing so doesn’t excuse the fact that he let it happen in the first place.

ticklemyelmo 5y ago

>Hi Marak, this is interesting! Give me a day to work on this; I will reach back out soon! You promised this last time. Why is a post on Hacker News any different than a private email?

notwhereyouare 5y ago
Because now it’s public he failed to respond
Axsuul 5y ago
C'mon, give the guy a break - people get busy.
- watwut 5y ago
  Is there even any duty to respond to unsolicited sales pitches? I would assume it is fine to ignore those.
  - Axsuul 5y ago
    Not at all since no one owes "you" anything. It's "your" duty to pursue it (e.g. endless follow ups, get connected through others)
paxys 5y ago
The email he ignored was a random sales pitch. Nowhere did the author mention his actual problem.
dvdhsu 5y ago
When Marak sent me the email, I read it as a "Hi, I built Faker, might you be interested in acquiring it?". I responded with a "yes, that could be interesting, give me a day to work on this". In the end, we decided that acquiring Faker didn't make sense, and I'm sorry to Marak for not sending a follow-up email telling him we weren't interested. In this case, the content is different (i.e. we are potentially abusing OSS), which is why I’m responding to this. (FWIW, I typically receive 50 - 100 sales emails every day. I do try and reply to the ones that look interesting, but I do forget to follow-up sometimes if we're not interested! This does not excuse my behavior in this particular case, and I’m sorry to Marak for not following up.)

mdni007 5y ago

Ooo

bussierem 5y ago

David you're probably just getting nonstop flak for this and as the CEO of the "big bad" here just let me say that I feel genuinely bad for you. Whatever conversation you have to have behind the scenes is a truly stupid thing to have to do in this situation. The CDN thing is dumb and maybe arguably not how this should have been done but your team and their work doesn't deserve to be villified for doing basically nothing wrong other than a very simple email miscommunication. Good luck with this all.

no_wizard 5y ago

This is the exact thing I was hoping would happen when I posted this

throwaway_25434 5y ago
I don’t see why having the CEO of a company justify themselves, and bear the burden of proof, for using an MIT library would be a desired outcome.
- refulgentis 5y ago
  Put another way, he forgot to get back to the guy whose project/hosting space his company was using, for a whole month, and he came back with a classy response and decent amount of detail. Everybody wins. Except the people who think there's a court in session here and are worried us plebians are putting _CEOs of companies_ on trial
  - klohto 5y ago
    Atleast put some effort into reading all the material if you want to shame somebody. 1) Initial email was sales pitch that did not touch the problem at all. Which retool responded to by the way. 2) CDN is hardcoded into the JS library. Why would you even do that and then shame people? If it’s against the ToS then you need people point to the ToS first. It’s the author’s fault here. 3) MIT license. How many times do we have to go through this. Retool could just fuck off but even before this witch hunt began, they were already donating. 4) Some human communication explaining the problem wouldn’t hurt. Personally I’m more likely to turn down using faker.js now.
    - serial_dev 5y ago
      This is a very good overview of the situation. It's sad how Retool's name was dragged through the mud for daring to use an MIT licensed open source project.
      - 5y ago

opensores11 5y ago

Hey David, I don't think your company did anything wrong. The CDN is hard codes into the library as far as I can tell. Ultimately there are two separate issues. 1. The CDN thing, of course. 2. The open source monetization never ending problem. The first can be fixed with a simple change to the library. The second your company is already trying to help in part. Ultimately open source is not easily monetizable...

ghoomketu 5y ago

They voluntarily donated $2000 to faker.js as I can see from opencollective link. It definitely looks like they love supporting open-source and not trying to rip-off small devs.

cutemonster 5y ago
It's a bit odd that if they hadn't done that, faker.js wouldn't have found out that they were using it that much, and couldn't have sent them the sales pitch in the first place. In an a bit odd way, this time, donating to OSS, resulted in "bad press" at least for a while. I hope things will end in a good way, somehow, for everyone

mpoteat 5y ago

Hey David, I really feel for you. These PR-esque situations are never fun, but I think you’ve done an excellent job of handling this. I believe there is a bias people have of viewing (somewhat ironically) things in terms of a “David vs. Goliath” lens. Everyone loves rooting for the little guy, even when the little guy is objectively incorrect. Hope your weekend goes better than it has been so far! Retool is an excellent product by the way :)

bryanrasmussen 5y ago
I mean the thing is this is more like David vs. a sergeant in the Philistine army than Goliath, Goliath would have to be Amazon level.

cudgy 5y ago

“Maybe we could commit one engineering-day per month for contributing back to OSS libraries we use heavily” This could be more disruptive than helpful as very few engineers would contribute much one day a month. Would you hire a developer for 1 day per month? They would more likely burden the experienced developers with questions and poor code submissions that need to be reviewed and then forget what they learned a month before.

victoray 5y ago
You're right, but how about this case: If the company has about 30 devs, so 1 dev can spend 1 month for this library, no one else needed?