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I think that the downvote mechanism should just be removed and the flag cap moved to 500. It's just become a mechanism to remove controversial topics from conve

I think that the downvote mechanism should just be removed and the flag cap moved to 500. It's just become a mechanism to remove controversial topics from conversation. HN used to have some very off-the-wall libertarian voices which incited some interesting conversations. Now everything just gets downvoted into oblivion unless you are Mainstream Approved Another interesting point as I sit here and watch this comment literally 'fade' into the echo chamber. Why is it that HN signals immediately when comments go below the 1 point threshold, yet hides upvotes? It seems like HN encourages the bandwagon effect on downward pressure only

Taek 5y ago
I do think the downvote button contributes considerably to shutting down things like pun threads and low effort comedic jabs. It's always sad to see someone who is making a good faith effort to have an interesting conversation get drowned in downvotes, but on the net I think the downvote does more good than harm.
- waiseristy 5y ago
  From Dang : > The purpose of flagging is to indicate that a story does not belong on HN. Frivolous flagging—e.g. flagging a story that's clearly on-topic by the site guidelines just because one personally dislikes it—eventually gets an account's flagging privileges taken away. > Flagging of comments is important, too. If you see a comment that breaks the HN guidelines, such as by being uncivil, you should flag it. But there's one extra hoop to jump through in the comment case: you have to click on the comment's timestamp to go to its page, then click 'flag' at the top. That's a speed bump to dampen impulsive flagging. I honestly think the opposite, downvotes are the perfect target for our knee-jerk lizard-brain response to things we don't like. Flagging and reporting are a much more community focused approach to moderation, requiring people to actually think about why they are removing a person from the conversation
nanidin 5y ago
> I think that the downvote mechanism should just be removed Why? I think this approach makes an assumption that everyone is upvoting everything that they would not downvote. I upvote things I find interesting or insightful, and I do my part in terms of moderation by downvoting comments that don't have a good fit for HN. What I see on Facebook and Twitter is that the inability for the hivemind to have some kind of downward pressure mechanism on comments encourages/enables polarizing comments by vocal minorities to rise to the top. I see this frequently in the comments on the posts of local political figures. The top comments shown are almost always controversial and unhelpful/unproductive - things like whataboutism, blatantly racist remarks, etc. Eventually I got tired of constantly catching myself up in arms over FB comments and stopped participating. The only way I see to counteract this as a rank-and-file user is to upvote/like every single comment except for the ones that are hurting actual discourse. IMO this will drive away people that you ultimately want to be participating on HN.
- waiseristy 5y ago
  You have an interesting point, that I think comes from our ill definition of why we have downvotes on HN and why we have flagging. Flagging, from what I can tell is for "a comment that breaks the HN guidelines" or "a story does not belong on HN". It seems like your downvotes for comments that "don't have a good fit for HN." would actually be better moderated by flagging, no? Flagging blatant racism and other destructive argument tactics is also fair game. So what are we actually downvoting for?
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    I rarely downvote, but when I do it’s almost always for something that seriously detracts from a curious and open-minded discussion or is factually wrong about its main point (not “doesn’t match my opinion” but “provably doesn’t match the facts”). I flag almost never. I probably vouch about half as often as I downvote.
    - waiseristy 5y ago
      I think I also downvote/moderate under similar circumstances, though I also fall prey to the exact kind of behavior that I'm calling out (flippant downvoting). You point out a super important part of forum moderation : trolling and posts which "provably do[n't] match the facts". Aka. Flame-Bait Downvoting is one way to moderate these posts, but the HN FAQ also mentions this type of behavior (suggesting Flagging as a solution) : > Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag, please don't also comment that you did. Downvoting is a great tool to moderate posts, especially for users who wield the power wisely like a longtime user like yourself. But I don't think the 500 comment threshold is enough to sort out the wheat (you) from the chaff (me). What's funny, is that HN voting is such a problem, it also dictates in the FAQ to not even complain about it! > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        I go on and off with having downvote arrows hidden by default: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26165960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26165960 Makes for one extra step if I want to downvote.
imtringued 5y ago
I personally think votes should only affect the order of comments. I am interested in reading down voted comments just to avoid the echo chamber effect.

Taek 5y ago

I do think the downvote button contributes considerably to shutting down things like pun threads and low effort comedic jabs. It's always sad to see someone who is making a good faith effort to have an interesting conversation get drowned in downvotes, but on the net I think the downvote does more good than harm.

waiseristy 5y ago
From Dang : > The purpose of flagging is to indicate that a story does not belong on HN. Frivolous flagging—e.g. flagging a story that's clearly on-topic by the site guidelines just because one personally dislikes it—eventually gets an account's flagging privileges taken away. > Flagging of comments is important, too. If you see a comment that breaks the HN guidelines, such as by being uncivil, you should flag it. But there's one extra hoop to jump through in the comment case: you have to click on the comment's timestamp to go to its page, then click 'flag' at the top. That's a speed bump to dampen impulsive flagging. I honestly think the opposite, downvotes are the perfect target for our knee-jerk lizard-brain response to things we don't like. Flagging and reporting are a much more community focused approach to moderation, requiring people to actually think about why they are removing a person from the conversation

nanidin 5y ago

> I think that the downvote mechanism should just be removed Why? I think this approach makes an assumption that everyone is upvoting everything that they would not downvote. I upvote things I find interesting or insightful, and I do my part in terms of moderation by downvoting comments that don't have a good fit for HN. What I see on Facebook and Twitter is that the inability for the hivemind to have some kind of downward pressure mechanism on comments encourages/enables polarizing comments by vocal minorities to rise to the top. I see this frequently in the comments on the posts of local political figures. The top comments shown are almost always controversial and unhelpful/unproductive - things like whataboutism, blatantly racist remarks, etc. Eventually I got tired of constantly catching myself up in arms over FB comments and stopped participating. The only way I see to counteract this as a rank-and-file user is to upvote/like every single comment except for the ones that are hurting actual discourse. IMO this will drive away people that you ultimately want to be participating on HN.

waiseristy 5y ago
You have an interesting point, that I think comes from our ill definition of why we have downvotes on HN and why we have flagging. Flagging, from what I can tell is for "a comment that breaks the HN guidelines" or "a story does not belong on HN". It seems like your downvotes for comments that "don't have a good fit for HN." would actually be better moderated by flagging, no? Flagging blatant racism and other destructive argument tactics is also fair game. So what are we actually downvoting for?
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I rarely downvote, but when I do it’s almost always for something that seriously detracts from a curious and open-minded discussion or is factually wrong about its main point (not “doesn’t match my opinion” but “provably doesn’t match the facts”). I flag almost never. I probably vouch about half as often as I downvote.
  - waiseristy 5y ago
    I think I also downvote/moderate under similar circumstances, though I also fall prey to the exact kind of behavior that I'm calling out (flippant downvoting). You point out a super important part of forum moderation : trolling and posts which "provably do[n't] match the facts". Aka. Flame-Bait Downvoting is one way to moderate these posts, but the HN FAQ also mentions this type of behavior (suggesting Flagging as a solution) : > Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag, please don't also comment that you did. Downvoting is a great tool to moderate posts, especially for users who wield the power wisely like a longtime user like yourself. But I don't think the 500 comment threshold is enough to sort out the wheat (you) from the chaff (me). What's funny, is that HN voting is such a problem, it also dictates in the FAQ to not even complain about it! > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      I go on and off with having downvote arrows hidden by default: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26165960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26165960 Makes for one extra step if I want to downvote.

imtringued 5y ago

I personally think votes should only affect the order of comments. I am interested in reading down voted comments just to avoid the echo chamber effect.