4 ms·

All linguistic rules are arbitrary cultural distinction. They're used for error correction and conveying subtly different meanings. In the "big red ball" vs. "

All linguistic rules are arbitrary cultural distinction. They're used for error correction and conveying subtly different meanings. In the "big red ball" vs. "red big ball" case it can be deliberately used to change the way the term parses. The "normal" one means a ball that is both red and big. The abnormal one implies that "big ball" is lexically a single object, perhaps a proper noun, and that the "red" modifier is being applied to it.

NikolaeVarius 5y ago
I dont really think thats a valid distinction. Is there a false/different final "thing" that is being described?
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  To make this more apparent, “that big yellow bird” just means any old ordinary bird, whereas people would probably take “that yellow big bird” to refer to Big Bird the Sesame Street character. So that can totally be a valid parsing of the sentence.
- ericbarrett 5y ago
  I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "false," but "different," definitely. Hyphens have fallen somewhat out of fashion in modern English but they can provide clarity in these cases. Let's change the noun. If a native speaker says, "big red hands," you can normally assume they're speaking of large hands which are colored red. However, if they say "red big hands," this parses to "red big-hands," meaning "big-hands" is treated as a title, or perhaps a brand. You might see this title capitalized: "red Big-Hands". Going back to the first example, if you mean "red hands" as a title, you could write "big Red Hands" or better yet, "big Red-Hands," meaning something big with the title Red-Hands. Since the adjective order is the same as grammatically conventional English, the hyphen helps distinguish the writer's meaning. But nowadays I find writers often leave it out when the adjective order implies the multi-word title.
  - lupire 5y ago
    big brown hairy foot. hairy brown bigfoot. :-)
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    At least when I was growing up, it was taught to avoid hyphens because the standards at the time (or at least the teachers teaching them) strongly disliked hyphens because they were associated with mid-word line breaking.
michael1999 5y ago
Or distinguishing between two big-balls, one of which is red.
- simondw 5y ago
  I'm not sure if you mean "big-ball" as a special object distinct from any "big ball." If not, I would still say "the big red ball, not the big green ball."
  - Izkata 5y ago
    If we're already talking about a "big ball" and someone wanted clarification about "the red one or the blue one", it's been promoted to a special object and for that context "the red big ball" sounds more correct to me. To show the promotion of "big ball" in text, I'd type it like "the red big ball" or "the red big-ball" (though the latter still looks odd), even though the emphasis of the former might be slight enough not to be obvious when spoken.
    - Twisol 5y ago
      As a very concrete example of this, in games like Diablo, you might have an item literally called "Big Ball" that can have a color attribute. You would (and I have) absolutely refer to a particular colored item as a "red Big Ball". This is the exception that proves the rule, though, as "big" is now in fact part of the ball's identity, rather than something merely describing the ball.
      - scubbo 5y ago
        > This is the exception that proves the rule, though, Seeing this phrase (or "Begs the question") used appropriately is always a pleasant surprise.
    - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
      Um, no. We (British-English speakers) say "big _red_ ball" just adding emphasis to the vocalisation of "red". You hear an example in Boris Johnson PM talking about "new _blue_ passport", people getting a "new passport" is a thing, but if you say a 'blue "new passport"' then people will find that a foreign turn off phrase and assume you're a non-native speaker or you're having a stroke (ie a medical problem with your brain). I mean, yeah, if it's a noun phrase it might work, but even if we're taking about a red zorb, it's not going to be "red big ball" unless Big Ball is a trade mark or brand name or whatever.

NikolaeVarius 5y ago

I dont really think thats a valid distinction. Is there a false/different final "thing" that is being described?

bobthepanda 5y ago
To make this more apparent, “that big yellow bird” just means any old ordinary bird, whereas people would probably take “that yellow big bird” to refer to Big Bird the Sesame Street character. So that can totally be a valid parsing of the sentence.
ericbarrett 5y ago
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "false," but "different," definitely. Hyphens have fallen somewhat out of fashion in modern English but they can provide clarity in these cases. Let's change the noun. If a native speaker says, "big red hands," you can normally assume they're speaking of large hands which are colored red. However, if they say "red big hands," this parses to "red big-hands," meaning "big-hands" is treated as a title, or perhaps a brand. You might see this title capitalized: "red Big-Hands". Going back to the first example, if you mean "red hands" as a title, you could write "big Red Hands" or better yet, "big Red-Hands," meaning something big with the title Red-Hands. Since the adjective order is the same as grammatically conventional English, the hyphen helps distinguish the writer's meaning. But nowadays I find writers often leave it out when the adjective order implies the multi-word title.
- lupire 5y ago
  big brown hairy foot. hairy brown bigfoot. :-)
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  At least when I was growing up, it was taught to avoid hyphens because the standards at the time (or at least the teachers teaching them) strongly disliked hyphens because they were associated with mid-word line breaking.

michael1999 5y ago

Or distinguishing between two big-balls, one of which is red.

simondw 5y ago
I'm not sure if you mean "big-ball" as a special object distinct from any "big ball." If not, I would still say "the big red ball, not the big green ball."
- Izkata 5y ago
  If we're already talking about a "big ball" and someone wanted clarification about "the red one or the blue one", it's been promoted to a special object and for that context "the red big ball" sounds more correct to me. To show the promotion of "big ball" in text, I'd type it like "the red big ball" or "the red big-ball" (though the latter still looks odd), even though the emphasis of the former might be slight enough not to be obvious when spoken.
  - Twisol 5y ago
    As a very concrete example of this, in games like Diablo, you might have an item literally called "Big Ball" that can have a color attribute. You would (and I have) absolutely refer to a particular colored item as a "red Big Ball". This is the exception that proves the rule, though, as "big" is now in fact part of the ball's identity, rather than something merely describing the ball.
    - scubbo 5y ago
      > This is the exception that proves the rule, though, Seeing this phrase (or "Begs the question") used appropriately is always a pleasant surprise.
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    Um, no. We (British-English speakers) say "big _red_ ball" just adding emphasis to the vocalisation of "red". You hear an example in Boris Johnson PM talking about "new _blue_ passport", people getting a "new passport" is a thing, but if you say a 'blue "new passport"' then people will find that a foreign turn off phrase and assume you're a non-native speaker or you're having a stroke (ie a medical problem with your brain). I mean, yeah, if it's a noun phrase it might work, but even if we're taking about a red zorb, it's not going to be "red big ball" unless Big Ball is a trade mark or brand name or whatever.