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It's the fundamental question here. Is justice a "means to an end" or "an end in itself"? You're with the former, I'm with the latter. I would also attack the

by slibhb 5y ago

It's the fundamental question here. Is justice a "means to an end" or "an end in itself"? You're with the former, I'm with the latter. I would also attack the notion of "evidence" here. The previous poster is not making an empirical argument at all, he's only pretending to. If Scandinavia had more crime than SF, he would pick another example (notice how he dismisses Singapore for...reasons). He's defending an a priori belief, as am I. Empiricism fails us here, we're arguing over values. > It strikes me as really strange to consider punishments for crimes as a sort of state-sponsored revenge. Justice is carried out by a disinterested third party (the state), revenge is not.

AussieWog93 5y ago
>notice how he dismisses Singapore for...reasons My point wasn't that punishment doesn't deter crime (it clearly does), but that crime rates are far more dependent on social and economic factors. Singapore and Scandinavia are quite similar in this regard (socially harmonious and prosperous, with a well educated lower class), even though they differ completely on attitudes towards crime and punishment. Both nations have low crime. America and Brazil (for example) both have a poorly educated, struggling-to-survive underclass whose needs are broadly ignored by the rest of society. Both have high crime rates. Give me a country with a despised underclass and low crime and I'll gladly concede.
- thenanyu 5y ago
  > Give me a country with a despised underclass and low crime and I'll gladly concede. China?
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    Fair cop.
  - nradov 5y ago
    China has a low rate of violent crime and shoplifting. But corruption is off the charts.
    - mmmBacon 5y ago
      And China also executes more people than any other and has the harshest penalties for crime. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/04/china-must-come-clean-about-capital-punishment/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/04/china-must-co...
      - ransom1538 5y ago
        Westerner: "Did you see that drug bust in Shanghai China yesterday? Two pounds of marijuana!". Chinese National: "Yes. I hear they received 2 days." Westerner: "2 days! That isn't that bad. You can do a lot more time in the states -- well at least in Texas. It's legal now on the entire west coast." Chinese National: "No. No. 2 days to live."
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    I’m not sure China fit the bill “despised under class”. It would seem to me that China’s (Han Chinese) underclass, at least in urban cities, have a lot more access to welfare, like the GP was saying about Singapore
    - thenanyu 5y ago
      In China, the underclass are literally second class citizens who risk being exiled from major cities should they get into trouble. Social services are not available to them.
- logicchains 5y ago
  >Give me a country with a despised underclass and low crime and I'll gladly concede. Literally Singapore has a massive underclass of migrant workers from South Asia, who are given limited visas that don't allow them the rights of even a normal work visa. In 2020 hundreds of thousands of them were locked in tiny dormitories for over six months straight while covid spread like wildfire through them (the vast majority of Singapore's 60k covid cases were in migrant worker dormitories). Their salaries are less than $500/month.
  - solarengineer 5y ago
    Nope, they weren’t “locked in”. They were in fact moved out by the government into a large number of alternate accommodations ( hotels, schools, apartments, under construction sites, barges) to space people apart. Everyone was tested for free, hospitalised and treated for free. Neither workers nor employers were charged any fee. The workers have free wifi at their dorms now and a mobile app via which their report issues directly to the Ministry of Manpower. I’m commenting only on “locked in” and not about their salaries, or other matters. (Edit: replaced “work“ with “wifi”)
    - logicchains 5y ago
      Most of them weren't allowed to roam freely in the community until around December/January, that's what I meant by locked in.
      - solarengineer 5y ago
        Roaming around has been highly discouraged in any case. Social distracting, limited table booking at restaurants, limited admissions to public places, group sizes at five, limits of how many can attend the office in person - all these were restrictions in place until a few months ago. The restrictions were replaced slightly a few weeks ago. With a recent upsurge, restrictions have been reintroduced. There aren’t that many places for dorm workers to roam. The most popular place is Little India, where they can procure goods that they are familiar with. I do see dorm workers regularly buying provisions at the same neighbourhood stores that I go to.
TomatoDash 5y ago
"justice ... Empiricism fails us here, we're arguing over values." Values can depend on descriptive background assumptions and in such cases value arguments can improve by making progress on factual topics. In the case of the justness of punishment: the topic of determinism. The recent discussion by Daniel Dennett and Greg Caruso in their book "Just Deserts - Debating Free Will" is a useful read.
danielheath 5y ago
Even with different values, there’s room for common ground. For instance, you could both support programs to prevent people turning to crime (proactively), without changing the strictness of enforcement. Assuming they were effective, that would make progress on both the safety and social justice angles. This is how you create effective change at scale - not focusing on the points where your values guarantee conflict, but finding approaches that can have broad support.
notSupplied 5y ago
If you learned that punishment produced no useful benefit to society, and you want to punish anyway, then what you’re seeking is revenge, not justice.
8note 5y ago
I would think the state is a very interested party

by slibhb 5y ago

AussieWog93 5y ago

>notice how he dismisses Singapore for...reasons My point wasn't that punishment doesn't deter crime (it clearly does), but that crime rates are far more dependent on social and economic factors. Singapore and Scandinavia are quite similar in this regard (socially harmonious and prosperous, with a well educated lower class), even though they differ completely on attitudes towards crime and punishment. Both nations have low crime. America and Brazil (for example) both have a poorly educated, struggling-to-survive underclass whose needs are broadly ignored by the rest of society. Both have high crime rates. Give me a country with a despised underclass and low crime and I'll gladly concede.

thenanyu 5y ago
> Give me a country with a despised underclass and low crime and I'll gladly concede. China?
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  Fair cop.
- nradov 5y ago
  China has a low rate of violent crime and shoplifting. But corruption is off the charts.
  - mmmBacon 5y ago
    And China also executes more people than any other and has the harshest penalties for crime. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/04/china-must-come-clean-about-capital-punishment/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/04/china-must-co...
    - ransom1538 5y ago
      Westerner: "Did you see that drug bust in Shanghai China yesterday? Two pounds of marijuana!". Chinese National: "Yes. I hear they received 2 days." Westerner: "2 days! That isn't that bad. You can do a lot more time in the states -- well at least in Texas. It's legal now on the entire west coast." Chinese National: "No. No. 2 days to live."
- nemothekid 5y ago
  I’m not sure China fit the bill “despised under class”. It would seem to me that China’s (Han Chinese) underclass, at least in urban cities, have a lot more access to welfare, like the GP was saying about Singapore
  - thenanyu 5y ago
    In China, the underclass are literally second class citizens who risk being exiled from major cities should they get into trouble. Social services are not available to them.
logicchains 5y ago
>Give me a country with a despised underclass and low crime and I'll gladly concede. Literally Singapore has a massive underclass of migrant workers from South Asia, who are given limited visas that don't allow them the rights of even a normal work visa. In 2020 hundreds of thousands of them were locked in tiny dormitories for over six months straight while covid spread like wildfire through them (the vast majority of Singapore's 60k covid cases were in migrant worker dormitories). Their salaries are less than $500/month.
- solarengineer 5y ago
  Nope, they weren’t “locked in”. They were in fact moved out by the government into a large number of alternate accommodations ( hotels, schools, apartments, under construction sites, barges) to space people apart. Everyone was tested for free, hospitalised and treated for free. Neither workers nor employers were charged any fee. The workers have free wifi at their dorms now and a mobile app via which their report issues directly to the Ministry of Manpower. I’m commenting only on “locked in” and not about their salaries, or other matters. (Edit: replaced “work“ with “wifi”)
  - logicchains 5y ago
    Most of them weren't allowed to roam freely in the community until around December/January, that's what I meant by locked in.
    - solarengineer 5y ago
      Roaming around has been highly discouraged in any case. Social distracting, limited table booking at restaurants, limited admissions to public places, group sizes at five, limits of how many can attend the office in person - all these were restrictions in place until a few months ago. The restrictions were replaced slightly a few weeks ago. With a recent upsurge, restrictions have been reintroduced. There aren’t that many places for dorm workers to roam. The most popular place is Little India, where they can procure goods that they are familiar with. I do see dorm workers regularly buying provisions at the same neighbourhood stores that I go to.

TomatoDash 5y ago

"justice ... Empiricism fails us here, we're arguing over values." Values can depend on descriptive background assumptions and in such cases value arguments can improve by making progress on factual topics. In the case of the justness of punishment: the topic of determinism. The recent discussion by Daniel Dennett and Greg Caruso in their book "Just Deserts - Debating Free Will" is a useful read.

danielheath 5y ago

Even with different values, there’s room for common ground. For instance, you could both support programs to prevent people turning to crime (proactively), without changing the strictness of enforcement. Assuming they were effective, that would make progress on both the safety and social justice angles. This is how you create effective change at scale - not focusing on the points where your values guarantee conflict, but finding approaches that can have broad support.

notSupplied 5y ago

If you learned that punishment produced no useful benefit to society, and you want to punish anyway, then what you’re seeking is revenge, not justice.

8note 5y ago

I would think the state is a very interested party