7 ms·

A curious mix of old-style and new for the keyboard, but one thing that really stands out is a key labelled "Help". I wish this had become part of standard key

A curious mix of old-style and new for the keyboard, but one thing that really stands out is a key labelled "Help". I wish this had become part of standard keyboard layouts decades ago. Other keys that would have been great to become standard: Load, Save, Undo, Redo

ajuc 5y ago
> key labelled "Help". I wish this had become part of standard keyboard layouts decades ago it was called F1
- anigbrowl 5y ago
  This sort of response is why people dislike techies. Arbitrary codes are how you get a priesthood, and that's not a good thing.
  - derefr 5y ago
    And the very fact of the Function keys' configurability meant that they couldn't be relied upon to always do some specific thing, which kind of let devs off the hook. If nobody's going to try pressing F1 anyway, you may as well not bother to make it do anything. Vicious cycle. (See also, and even worse: the "What is This?" window caption-button in Windows, that invoked a modal "Context Help" mode. It was so non-discoverable — and optional! — that I don't know of a single third-party that ever bothered enabling their software to use it.) On the other hand, if there's a key on the user's keyboard explicitly labelled "Help", then as a developer you'll feel somewhat obligated to put some informative documentation into your app that appears when "Help" is pressed. "Burning" a help function into the hardware, takes away the developer's choice in whether they want to offer help or not, without needing to impose any sort of centralized QA process. The QA process is something the dev will be incentivized to do on their own, when faced with the realization of the inevitability of users' frustrated expectations when they think pressing "Help" will get them some help. :)
  - nix23 5y ago
    >This sort of response is why people dislike techies. Enter was called "return"..and you know why? Typewriters...carriage return, if you have already functions why no use it? You want a Copy/Paste button too?
    - rzzzt 5y ago
      Some keyboards tailored for office applications do have copy/paste/help/browse the internet/launch spreadsheet keys.
      - nix23 5y ago
        >internet/launch Yes the thing who needs 10y old dell software and always opens IE even if something else is the standard browser ;)
    - jimktrains2 5y ago
      Enter and return, while often interchangeable are not always and some keyboards have separate enter and return keys. Also, some keyboards like sun's and some serial terminals had dedicated copy, paste, &c.
  - forinti 5y ago
    This is true, but there is another issue: people who are not techies are not held up to the standard they should be when using computers. If you work with certain software, it is your job to learn to use it well. And if you screw things up because you didn't take the bother to learn how to do it properly, then it is not "the system's fault". You have to be proficient at least with the system you are using, but people want to use software that is intuitive, even when the task is complex.
  - lloydatkinson 5y ago
    It’s exactly the kind of response you see on HN unfortunately
- cout 5y ago
  No, F3 is help. F1 is cancel. https://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/wp51.jpg https://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/wp51.jpg
- sys_64738 5y ago
  I thought F1 was the ‘continue’ key...?
- amelius 5y ago
  Most confusing imho is Ctrl+C means Copy in one context, and SIGINT in another.
xenomachina 5y ago
Amigas have a Help key. I can't think of any software that actually uses it, though.
- arrakeen 5y ago
  plenty do—frexxed and resource off the top of my head—which is why the fact that my externalized a1200 keyboard solution not mapping the help key is super annoying
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  Yeah, same on the Atari ST. Almost nothing used it.
pvitz 5y ago
The old Bloomberg keyboards had a separate "Help" key. However, the new one merged it again with the "F1” key.
cellularmitosis 5y ago
The old sun keyboards had a few keys like that. My favorite was the “again” key :)
- rzzzt 5y ago
  I feel obligated to add a link to the space-cadet keyboard with its many, many modifier and command keys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    The first keyboard to have like and dislike keys!
  - gorbachev 5y ago
    The Hyper-7 is a spiritual successor to the Space Cadet keyboard: https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/shop/hyper-7-keyboard-r3/ https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/shop/hyper-7-keyboard-r3/ It's a beast.
    - lloydatkinson 5y ago
      Do any of those extra keys even work in today’s apps and OSs? What does the Call button even do? Are they essentially macro keys you have to program so they produce a series of keys?
      - gorbachev 5y ago
        Yes, they're all really just macro keys. Hyper-7 runs on QMK, so you can make any one of those keys do more or less whatever you want.
fnord77 5y ago
the help key on old sun boxes was rarely ever helpful
scruffyherder 5y ago
Amiga had a help key. It did nothing

ajuc 5y ago

> key labelled "Help". I wish this had become part of standard keyboard layouts decades ago it was called F1

anigbrowl 5y ago
This sort of response is why people dislike techies. Arbitrary codes are how you get a priesthood, and that's not a good thing.
- derefr 5y ago
  And the very fact of the Function keys' configurability meant that they couldn't be relied upon to always do some specific thing, which kind of let devs off the hook. If nobody's going to try pressing F1 anyway, you may as well not bother to make it do anything. Vicious cycle. (See also, and even worse: the "What is This?" window caption-button in Windows, that invoked a modal "Context Help" mode. It was so non-discoverable — and optional! — that I don't know of a single third-party that ever bothered enabling their software to use it.) On the other hand, if there's a key on the user's keyboard explicitly labelled "Help", then as a developer you'll feel somewhat obligated to put some informative documentation into your app that appears when "Help" is pressed. "Burning" a help function into the hardware, takes away the developer's choice in whether they want to offer help or not, without needing to impose any sort of centralized QA process. The QA process is something the dev will be incentivized to do on their own, when faced with the realization of the inevitability of users' frustrated expectations when they think pressing "Help" will get them some help. :)
- nix23 5y ago
  >This sort of response is why people dislike techies. Enter was called "return"..and you know why? Typewriters...carriage return, if you have already functions why no use it? You want a Copy/Paste button too?
  - rzzzt 5y ago
    Some keyboards tailored for office applications do have copy/paste/help/browse the internet/launch spreadsheet keys.
    - nix23 5y ago
      >internet/launch Yes the thing who needs 10y old dell software and always opens IE even if something else is the standard browser ;)
  - jimktrains2 5y ago
    Enter and return, while often interchangeable are not always and some keyboards have separate enter and return keys. Also, some keyboards like sun's and some serial terminals had dedicated copy, paste, &c.
- forinti 5y ago
  This is true, but there is another issue: people who are not techies are not held up to the standard they should be when using computers. If you work with certain software, it is your job to learn to use it well. And if you screw things up because you didn't take the bother to learn how to do it properly, then it is not "the system's fault". You have to be proficient at least with the system you are using, but people want to use software that is intuitive, even when the task is complex.
- lloydatkinson 5y ago
  It’s exactly the kind of response you see on HN unfortunately
cout 5y ago
No, F3 is help. F1 is cancel. https://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/wp51.jpg https://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/wp51.jpg
sys_64738 5y ago
I thought F1 was the ‘continue’ key...?
amelius 5y ago
Most confusing imho is Ctrl+C means Copy in one context, and SIGINT in another.

xenomachina 5y ago

Amigas have a Help key. I can't think of any software that actually uses it, though.

arrakeen 5y ago
plenty do—frexxed and resource off the top of my head—which is why the fact that my externalized a1200 keyboard solution not mapping the help key is super annoying
cmrdporcupine 5y ago
Yeah, same on the Atari ST. Almost nothing used it.

pvitz 5y ago

The old Bloomberg keyboards had a separate "Help" key. However, the new one merged it again with the "F1” key.

cellularmitosis 5y ago

The old sun keyboards had a few keys like that. My favorite was the “again” key :)

rzzzt 5y ago
I feel obligated to add a link to the space-cadet keyboard with its many, many modifier and command keys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard
- rbanffy 5y ago
  The first keyboard to have like and dislike keys!
- gorbachev 5y ago
  The Hyper-7 is a spiritual successor to the Space Cadet keyboard: https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/shop/hyper-7-keyboard-r3/ https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/shop/hyper-7-keyboard-r3/ It's a beast.
  - lloydatkinson 5y ago
    Do any of those extra keys even work in today’s apps and OSs? What does the Call button even do? Are they essentially macro keys you have to program so they produce a series of keys?
    - gorbachev 5y ago
      Yes, they're all really just macro keys. Hyper-7 runs on QMK, so you can make any one of those keys do more or less whatever you want.

fnord77 5y ago

the help key on old sun boxes was rarely ever helpful

scruffyherder 5y ago

Amiga had a help key. It did nothing