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Most phone users aren’t interested in developing software on their phone. They aren’t interested in developing a better systemd. They have no idea what malware

• benrbray 5y ago
  The point is opening it up so users have a choice. Third party stores will emerge, and it is up to the consumer, not Apple, to decide whether the extra features are worth the new apps being a little rough around the edges like they are on Android. If it's as bad as you say, the new stores will not be successful anyway.
  • threatofrain 5y ago
    Why do users care about this choice? What are some top experiences available to Android which aren't available to iOS customers? In fact, isn't it often the other way around? iOS gets things and Android doesn't? Or are users seeing awful prices for the app store? Where are Customers complaining the most?
    • skohan 5y ago
      Well I can imagine if 3rd party stores were allowed, I could have a Steam client on an iPad for example, and share my library of games without paying for it a second time for iOS.
      • pindab0ter 5y ago
        But there’s no Steam on Android either even though they do support third party app stores.
        • Dah00n 5y ago
          There are rumours of Valve looking into Steam on Android and iOS.
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    • kbenson 5y ago
      > What are some top experiences available to Android which aren't available to iOS customers? The Humble Bundle app allows you to install Android games you bought through humble bundles onto your Android phone. This allows you to buy bundles of games from developers at your own desired purchase price and give an amount of that purchase you choose to some charities of your choice. It is, quite literally, used as another store and has the ability to install applications. Many of the games I've gotten through that are also available on iOS, but you're unable to get iOS versions from this because there's no way to install that app nor a way for it to install other applications if you did, currently. At least some of those developers would be happy to offer iOS versions as a bundle, or even give you access to choose iOS or Android in the same bundle, but there's no way to legitimately deliver these games to those customers.
    • ThatPlayer 5y ago
      >What are some top experiences available to Android which aren't available to iOS customers? Recently, cloud gaming apps and paying for subscriptions. Google Stadia and Xbox Streaming are not allowed through the iOS Store. Netflix and Spotify(not sure about this one) do not allow you to pay for the subscription on their app because Apple asks for 30%. Apple does not allow other browser rendering engines. So now every iOS browser is just a Safari wrapper and you're unable to do any sort of plug-in, like adblockers. These features being blocked does not help customers. They only help Apple.
  • nucleardog 5y ago
    > The point is opening it up so users have a choice. Users have a choice: Don't use iOS. Their actions have pretty overwhelmingly spoken and they don't care. The only people that care are techies. And most obviously not that much because most meetings I show up to are still full of iPhones.
    • tshaddox 5y ago
      I’m a techie and I don’t want to worry about malware, spyware, extensive software configuration, etc. on my microwave, my car, or my phone. I’ve got plenty of computing devices for that!
      • moogly 5y ago
        iOS isn't immune: https://interestingengineering.com/apple-reportedly-kept-malware-attack-on-128-million-users-a-secret https://interestingengineering.com/apple-reportedly-kept-mal...
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    • kelnos 5y ago
      > Users have a choice: Don't use iOS. The judge in question was clearly not at all impressed with this argument when Cook raised it, and neither am I. This amounts to telling people to throw the baby out with the bathwater every time they have an issue with something.
    • nervlord 5y ago
      Users have a choice: Don't use Microsoft Windows if you don't like the bundled Internet Explorer.
    • egocentric 5y ago
      You will also have a choice: don’t use alternative stores And if Apple is so concerned about user security & privacy when it comes to alternative app stores, they should adjust their policies so that the apps most users want will see no reason not to be on the App Store.
  • trimbo 5y ago
    <retracted>
    • bsder 5y ago
      > Then we'll have to trust that all of these companies have the same level of competence to prevent malware that Apple does (narrator: "they won't"). This is a losing argument. We've already seen that the Apple store doesn't/can't prevent clones and fakes with information collecting inserts from overwhelming the originals. Another store might actually do this better.
      • insert_coin 5y ago
        They already can do it better on Android!
      • elefanten 5y ago
        This is a ridiculous caricature of reality. If anything, empirically we've seen that Apple runs a much tighter ship wrt scams and malware than Android and 3rd party friendly platforms. Especially from the perspective of non-tech mass consumer, who are incredibly well served by Apple's model. Legislating / ruling Apple's closed model to be illegal is the true harm to consumer choice and freedom.
        • Daishiman 5y ago
          When you only have two choices of operating system for phones, there is not choice. It's a duopoly; there's nothing competitive or pro-consumer in having to lump the entirety of your mobile OS feature sets in two camps and damn anything else that doesn't remotely resemble that. Sorry but Toyota doesn't have its business model harmed by being able to go to my mechanic to tune a car. If Apple wants to put three layers of dialogues to open up customization, so be it. I have no sympathy for a trillion-dollar company and their "choice".
    • kbenson 5y ago
      > Every app with any popularity will then be considering their own app store. The WeChat Store. The Facebook Store. The Snap Store. Why would you assume this would happen on iOS when it hasn't happened on Android, when the suggestion is to do what Android already allows, and yet we don't see this on Android?
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• skohan 5y ago
  The new iPads literally have the same SOC as what are some of, if not the best consumer laptops on the planet currently. But what can you do with them? Not a heck of a lot, thanks to the walled garden that is iPad OS. If you ask me, that's a crying shame. I don't see how it hurts anyone to allow side-loading of apps on iOS devices. Even if you make it as hard as having a toggle behind a scary warning 2 layers deep in the menu, 95% of users will never use it, and it will open up a world of opportunities for people who actually want to create with their devices.
  • insert_coin 5y ago
    And you can not buy iPads. I know it is completely anathema to suggest something like this on HN these days as the socialist wave completely took it over and the mere suggestion that people have the freedom to not buy something if they don't think it fits within their world view instead of trying to force everyone using the state and the courts to cater specifically to them is now considered a sin, but... You said it yourself, you have a laptop with the exact same chip that lets you do all the things you want, and then you have the iPad that doesn't...why don't you buy the laptop instead? Surely if enough people feel the way you do Apple would get the message.
  • tshaddox 5y ago
    > If you ask me, that's a crying shame. If they ask you, buy the MacBook Air instead of the iPad Pro!
    • skohan 5y ago
      The point is that a developer could have a lot of fun experimenting with the tablet form factor and inputs, with the full power of a desktop system (including hardware x86 emulation which is currently unusable!) but we can't because Apple says we can only use the hardware we bought in the way which they intend it. Imagine how you would react with any other product you paid for, and brought into your home, if the company which produced it had the right to dictate how you could and could not use it.
  • enos_feedler 5y ago
• stale2002 5y ago
  > Keep your grubby mitts off the Apple ecosystem. But it is actually you who want to control how other people use their own phone, that they own. If you don't like Epic's store, just don't use it. Problem solved. That way, people who want to trust apple get what they want, as well as people who want to trust other app stores. Everyone wins, right? Why do you care so much about how other people use their own phone?
  • kitsunesoba 5y ago
    > If you don't like Epic's store, just don't use it. Problem solved. That only holds up until something you need is exclusive to a store that you don't want to use.
    • zepto 5y ago
      Which will happen pretty instantly since the stores will buy exclusives.
      • kelnos 5y ago
        Will it, though? My expectation is that most apps will still want to be on the main App Store if they can, since installing a third-party app store still represents friction to the install experience. Perhaps in a more mature market where having several app stores on your phone is commonplace (assuming that even happens), we'll have an annoying situation of exclusives, but I don't expect that "instantly" or even remotely so.
        • zepto 5y ago
          Yes, it will happen instantly. Well funded app stores will just pay up front for exclusives. It’s completely standard practice in any comparable industry. Music, TV, Movies, books, podcasts, etc. Developers might abstractly prefer to be on the main store, but some will be happy to take million dollar payouts from the marketing budgets of the new stores. It’s hard enough for independents to be successful now, but once you have competing publishers like Epic in the game, the era of independent commercial app development will be over.
• saagarjha 5y ago
  > the user will get apps that are poorly designed, chew battery, and don’t conform to the UX standards that Apple has set (eg: accessibility) and exploit undocumented APIs which change from iOS version to version This is already true with the App Store today.
• StavrosK 5y ago
  > All that is going to happen if Epic gets their own store is Epic will be collecting the 30% rather than Apple "All" that is going to happen if Epic gets their own store is there's going to be competition in what is now a monopoly. To say that the only difference will be lower quality is, at best, naive.
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  • justaguy88 5y ago
    I'm interested to see Steam on the iphone rather than anything Epic might do
    • t-writescode 5y ago
      The good news is that if Epic wins, that could be a reality!
    • skinnymuch 5y ago
      Epic winning wouldn’t only let Epic do things. It would let any one. Though why not be interested in what the company doing the fighting is doing? Versus Steam that only has a good rep because other app stores in comparison seem worse. Even though Steam’s fee is crazy too and they only did one recent change because of competition.
    • techrat 5y ago
      > I'm interested to see Steam on the iphone rather than anything Epic might do Steam isn't even an app store on Android.
      • voxic11 5y ago
        I use steam on my phone all the time via gforce now.
  • broknbottle 5y ago
    Great I can't wait to sideload the Epic Game store on my PS5 and Xbox series X. I also look forward to the outlawing of buying exclusive rights and laws that force developers to release their games on every platform in existence. Anything less is AnTi CoNsUmEr.. Some of us prefer to sit down and use a device without having to worry about installing an app or game store just to use/play one app...
• scrubs 5y ago
  Nah - it cannot be Apple, all Apple, or go home. Gez, if that's the way Apple wants it, it better make me a shareholder so I can get my proper cut.
• skynet-9000 5y ago
  All Apple has to do is change the APIs from version to version and poorly document the changes. Would Apple do such a thing? Of course not. Apple is too noble and good for that -- exactly like how they work with WebRTC right now.
• mordymoop 5y ago
  Indeed. The customer is, of course, the people buying the phones and buying the software, and not the developers. The judge seems a little vague on this fact. One has to either accept that the customers buy Apple because they prefer it this way, or else assert that the customers are too dumb to know what’s good for them. That may be literally true but isn’t really a classically good argument you would use to pin somebody down on anticompetitive behavior. Also, as a parent, I consider it a useful feature that Apple makes it very hard for kids to buy things on the phone through any method other than the one that I am aware of.
  • egocentric 5y ago
    Apple doesn’t let developers tell their users what Apple’s rules are, including the fact that up to 30% of their payment goes straight to Apple. And of course people don’t know of all the good apps that never get to be on the App Store because of unwarranted rejections. So people generally have no idea about most of the problems with the status quo.
• elefanten 5y ago
  100% true. Legislating away the option to run a closed, manicured, walled-garden model is the true harm to consumer choice and freedom. I want my parents and non-techie friends and family to have the easy, stress-free, locked-down model that they enjoy and that works for them.
  • egocentric 5y ago
    Your parents and non-techie friends and family won’t have to use alternative stores, no one will be forcing them to. And if Apple is so concerned about user security & privacy when it comes to alternative app stores, they should adjust their policies so that the apps most users want will see no reason not to be on the App Store.
    • oflannabhra 5y ago
      Decades of experience helping protect my parents PCs tells me this isn’t true. As soon as the option is available, it will be exploited by bad actors. I guarantee that “app stores” will prey on my parents fears or confusion to get them to install that store as opposed to Apple’s, and I really don’t want that.
      • fartcannon 5y ago
        Do they fall for email/sms scams?
• Nahman123 5y ago
  >and the user will get apps that are poorly designed, chew battery Source?
• nervlord 5y ago
  Most users are not interested in developing a better systemd, that's true, but you know what they are very interested in? Being allowed to install applications not approved by Apple for arbitrary reasons (Parlor anyone?). It's their phone, they take the risk. You give them a warning that they are about to install an unapproved app just like android. If they go ahead with the install who the heck are you to tell them otherwise? "Keep your grubby mitts off the apple ecosystem" This line betrays the true motivation: It's about that 30% profit on all transactions. It's got absolutely zero to do with preventing apps that are "poorly designed, chew battery, and don't conform to UX standards." Apps that meet that description make it through the "QA Process" for app submission, All. The. Time. I don't buy the excuse from you, and the judge didn't buy it from Tim either, this has got nothing to do with protecting users and everything to do with profit.
• gamblor956 5y ago
  All that is going to happen if Epic gets their own store is Epic will be collecting the 30% rather than Apple Epic already has a store of its own, and it charges developers 12%. Moreover, Apple already has thousands of apps that are poorly designed, chew battery, and don't conform to Apple UX standards. Part of the reason for the pushback against the Apple tax is that Apple is objectively failing to perform many of the tasks it claims as justifications for the tax.
• emsy 5y ago
  >If you want third party stores, there’s the Android ecosystem. Keep your grubby mitts off the Apple ecosystem. Ah yes, because that's where you'll find customers that use iOS.
• deleted 5y ago
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• paulddraper 5y ago
  > If you want third party stores, there’s the Android ecosystem. Keep your grubby mitts off the Apple ecosystem. Ok. Like the other 72% of users, I will.
• kbenson 5y ago
  > All that is going to happen if Epic gets their own store is Epic will be collecting the 30% rather than Apple News flash, Epic already runs a store, and competes with another store (Steam) which takes a 30% cut. How much of a cut does Epic take there? 12%. There is a well known example of Epic in a similar situation specifically not doing what you say they will, so why assume they will do that? Or are you arguing without knowing this fairly common knowledge of this case? > the user will get apps that are poorly designed, chew battery, and don’t conform to the UX standards that Apple has set These are games. They already don't conform to the UI standards. They already chew battery by the nature of what they do, not because they are inefficient. That said, being the authors of the Unreal Engine, Epic is in a key position to make changes so the engine works better with iPhone norms, performs better, and uses less battery and many games would benefit from that. If only Epic had more financial incentive to focus work on the iOS platform... > and exploit undocumented APIs which change from iOS version to version. Doubtful. They need to make sure their product is stable across a wide swatch of iOS devices, as individual game makers that license their product will have different support policies and targets. You don't make a widely portable and stable engine across multiple architectures and operating systems by using hidden and unstable APIs unless you have some assurance they aren't going away. > Epic will blame Apple for all these problems, Apple will blame Epic for not doing sufficient QC, and we’ll be back in court with various store managers demanding that Apple stop changing things. The blaming I see going on is people that don't really understand the market, the problems, or the incentives making wild conjectures that not only aren't backed up by anything, whether that be logic or evidence, but seem to run counter to that. > If you want third party stores, there’s the Android ecosystem. They're being sued too. They take the same cut. You can put an alternate store on Android, but you can't have it function with the same permissions (you need to manually approve each install, and it can't auto-update). This is what keeps third party stores from actually being a reality there. I don't consider secondary stores that ship with the phone on purchase and are part of the customer OS shipped "third party", and that's what has to be done to really compete on the same level as the Play store, and even then, it's not like they're used much. This is all about control and Apple not wanting to give up that very lucrative 30% cut of in app purchases, and subscriptions.
  • e_proxus 5y ago