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It seems like in the startup world, accessibility is about the last priority. After all, if you're in the business of shipping half-finished software and rushi

It seems like in the startup world, accessibility is about the last priority. After all, if you're in the business of shipping half-finished software and rushing from one feature to the next in a mountain of tech debt, how on earth are you going to find the time to think about accessibility? Internet shaming aside, ignoring accessibility for a while seems like good business sense.

threatofrain 5y ago
If you don't ship then nobody can access your product. If your product is more expensive than fewer people can access your product.
- fassssst 5y ago
  And that’s the reason the modern world sucks for a lot of people. Imagine living in a world where people don’t design for you because it’s not economically worth it.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    I'm a Linux user. It sucks but you deal.
    - IanCal 5y ago
      Someone who is colourblind can't just switch to better supported eyes.
      - Google234 5y ago
        Some deaf people actually choose to remain deaf rather than use an implant.
        IanCal 5y ago
        I'm not sure how why you think that is a relevant comment. The general point is that "I don't use a particular OS" is wildly different to "my body does not work that way".
  - matz1 5y ago
    Likewise imagine living in a world where you are forced to do work where its not economically worth it, thats really sucks.
    - fassssst 5y ago
      Software generally has high margins. There’s no excuse.
      - matz1 5y ago
        Being paid a lot doesn't necessarily make the job less annoying.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - robbrown451 5y ago
    Seems like it was far more that way in the pre-modern world.... even a few decades ago.
- paxys 5y ago
  In the physical world you can't just ignore safety and accessibility requirements because "hey, it's expensive and if I don't open then no one will be able to visit my business at all. Might as well serve some percent of the population." Websites shouldn't be any different.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    Financial access is an accessibility problem too. It makes sense to target the largest demographics by problem of access if you cannot help everyone. Also, when you have financial access issues, it implies that you have access issues for everything in life, including the basics like medical care.
  - robbrown451 5y ago
    It depends. Safety... well that's different. But there are many physical products that can only be used by people without certain disabilities. For instance, cameras, mirrors, light bulbs and paintings require you to be sighted to get any utility from them. Headphones require you to be able to hear. Those might be extreme examples, but there are a huge number of things that you basically get zero utility out of if you don't have typical abilities in relevant areas. Should I not be allowed to sell a bicycle if I can't figure out a way to make it work for people who don't have 4 functioning limbs? Most web sites can be made accessible simply by making them work normally and reasonably... it's generally the browser's job (and various other things like screenreaders) to make them accessible, assuming the web developer isn't doing something particularly weirdly. Isn't it? It seems highly inefficient use of resources to have each site have to do a lot of work to support accessibility, especially if the sites are doing basic things like presenting documents. But if I make a web based paint program or charting app, what am I supposed to do for people who don't have sight? Does that even make sense?
    - IanCal 5y ago
      I think you should actually read about accessibility requirements. > Most web sites can be made accessible simply by making them work normally and reasonably... it's generally the browser's job (and various other things like screenreaders) to make them accessible, assuming the web developer isn't doing something particularly weirdly. Isn't it? It's not the browsers legal responsibility to do so, no. It's the responsibility of the business to do that.
codingdave 5y ago
Section 508 and ADA laws are quite real, and there are activists out there literally just looking for websites to sue who do not meet those requirements. You need to balance launch and revenue with the risk that you'll get sued and the cost of the consequences. I'm not disagreeing with you, BTW... just saying that for the decision to be good business sense you need to look at the full potential impact on the business.
- etaioinshrdlu 5y ago
  Are they really risks though? Are there any examples of say, YC-stage startups who got sued into oblivion over accessibility? It just kind of feels like a joke, when almost any webapp in existence is not compliant and there is no enforcement. It also goes against the hacker ethos that we should be free to build and share without credentialing or licensing. Imagine if you couldn't Show HN without thinking about accessibility and actually taking on serious legal risk.
  - extra88 5y ago
    > YC-stage startups who got sued into oblivion over accessibility No, because real people with problems (not lawsuit trolls) don't want your money, they want you to fix your product. Most will reach out before bringing a suit. If a suit is brought, they almost always settle if the company A) fixes the problem and commits to keeping the product accessible and B) pays the costs of the suit. It's cheaper to fix the problems than to fight the suit, especially for a new business that doesn't have a lot of technical debt or a large corpus of inaccessible content. > Imagine if you couldn't Show HN without thinking about accessibility and actually taking on serious legal risk. U.S. accessibility requirements for private entities (vs. government ones) apply to "places of public accommodation." Lawsuit results have been mixed about whether an online operation, especially if it has no corresponding physical operation, count as a "place" (I think they do). Personal sites, projects will not require meeting accessibility requirements any more than your house will be legally required to have a ramp for wheelchair users. If you're going to worry about legal risks for Show HN projects, worry more about creating privacy and security problems for users.
leros 5y ago
Usually laws like this don't apply until you're a certain size, headcount or revenue. I'm not sure if that's the case with accessibility but usually startups building MVPs can focus on the product and come back to hit compliance once they start growing.
pradn 5y ago
At least for SaaS websites, I imagine you're limiting who can buy your software if you don't comply with relevant a11y guidelines - think government, healthcare, and some big companies etc.
amelius 5y ago
> It seems like in the startup world, accessibility is about the last priority. Right after security.

threatofrain 5y ago

If you don't ship then nobody can access your product. If your product is more expensive than fewer people can access your product.

fassssst 5y ago
And that’s the reason the modern world sucks for a lot of people. Imagine living in a world where people don’t design for you because it’s not economically worth it.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  I'm a Linux user. It sucks but you deal.
  - IanCal 5y ago
    Someone who is colourblind can't just switch to better supported eyes.
    - Google234 5y ago
      Some deaf people actually choose to remain deaf rather than use an implant.
      - IanCal 5y ago
        I'm not sure how why you think that is a relevant comment. The general point is that "I don't use a particular OS" is wildly different to "my body does not work that way".
- matz1 5y ago
  Likewise imagine living in a world where you are forced to do work where its not economically worth it, thats really sucks.
  - fassssst 5y ago
    Software generally has high margins. There’s no excuse.
    - matz1 5y ago
      Being paid a lot doesn't necessarily make the job less annoying.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- robbrown451 5y ago
  Seems like it was far more that way in the pre-modern world.... even a few decades ago.
paxys 5y ago
In the physical world you can't just ignore safety and accessibility requirements because "hey, it's expensive and if I don't open then no one will be able to visit my business at all. Might as well serve some percent of the population." Websites shouldn't be any different.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  Financial access is an accessibility problem too. It makes sense to target the largest demographics by problem of access if you cannot help everyone. Also, when you have financial access issues, it implies that you have access issues for everything in life, including the basics like medical care.
- robbrown451 5y ago
  It depends. Safety... well that's different. But there are many physical products that can only be used by people without certain disabilities. For instance, cameras, mirrors, light bulbs and paintings require you to be sighted to get any utility from them. Headphones require you to be able to hear. Those might be extreme examples, but there are a huge number of things that you basically get zero utility out of if you don't have typical abilities in relevant areas. Should I not be allowed to sell a bicycle if I can't figure out a way to make it work for people who don't have 4 functioning limbs? Most web sites can be made accessible simply by making them work normally and reasonably... it's generally the browser's job (and various other things like screenreaders) to make them accessible, assuming the web developer isn't doing something particularly weirdly. Isn't it? It seems highly inefficient use of resources to have each site have to do a lot of work to support accessibility, especially if the sites are doing basic things like presenting documents. But if I make a web based paint program or charting app, what am I supposed to do for people who don't have sight? Does that even make sense?
  - IanCal 5y ago
    I think you should actually read about accessibility requirements. > Most web sites can be made accessible simply by making them work normally and reasonably... it's generally the browser's job (and various other things like screenreaders) to make them accessible, assuming the web developer isn't doing something particularly weirdly. Isn't it? It's not the browsers legal responsibility to do so, no. It's the responsibility of the business to do that.

codingdave 5y ago

Section 508 and ADA laws are quite real, and there are activists out there literally just looking for websites to sue who do not meet those requirements. You need to balance launch and revenue with the risk that you'll get sued and the cost of the consequences. I'm not disagreeing with you, BTW... just saying that for the decision to be good business sense you need to look at the full potential impact on the business.

etaioinshrdlu 5y ago
Are they really risks though? Are there any examples of say, YC-stage startups who got sued into oblivion over accessibility? It just kind of feels like a joke, when almost any webapp in existence is not compliant and there is no enforcement. It also goes against the hacker ethos that we should be free to build and share without credentialing or licensing. Imagine if you couldn't Show HN without thinking about accessibility and actually taking on serious legal risk.
- extra88 5y ago
  > YC-stage startups who got sued into oblivion over accessibility No, because real people with problems (not lawsuit trolls) don't want your money, they want you to fix your product. Most will reach out before bringing a suit. If a suit is brought, they almost always settle if the company A) fixes the problem and commits to keeping the product accessible and B) pays the costs of the suit. It's cheaper to fix the problems than to fight the suit, especially for a new business that doesn't have a lot of technical debt or a large corpus of inaccessible content. > Imagine if you couldn't Show HN without thinking about accessibility and actually taking on serious legal risk. U.S. accessibility requirements for private entities (vs. government ones) apply to "places of public accommodation." Lawsuit results have been mixed about whether an online operation, especially if it has no corresponding physical operation, count as a "place" (I think they do). Personal sites, projects will not require meeting accessibility requirements any more than your house will be legally required to have a ramp for wheelchair users. If you're going to worry about legal risks for Show HN projects, worry more about creating privacy and security problems for users.

leros 5y ago

Usually laws like this don't apply until you're a certain size, headcount or revenue. I'm not sure if that's the case with accessibility but usually startups building MVPs can focus on the product and come back to hit compliance once they start growing.

pradn 5y ago

At least for SaaS websites, I imagine you're limiting who can buy your software if you don't comply with relevant a11y guidelines - think government, healthcare, and some big companies etc.

amelius 5y ago

> It seems like in the startup world, accessibility is about the last priority. Right after security.