5 ms·

I don't think people need to know how they work. They just need to know that those are what doctors wear and that they are very, very effective. And much better

by mhb 5y ago

I don't think people need to know how they work. They just need to know that those are what doctors wear and that they are very, very effective. And much better than a mask you make from ad hoc materials. Once N95 masks became readily available and cheap, it was (and is) mysterious why people weren't being told to wear them to protect themselves instead of wearing whatever was at hand to sort of protect themselves and others.

mulmen 5y ago
If you tell me how something works and it fits within my mental model of the world then I will trust you. I will add this information to my mental model of the world. If you tell me something works but can't explain how I will consider if the claim is worth evaluating then attempt to understand it myself before accepting it. If you tell me to trust you with no explanation I will immediately distrust you.
- mhb 5y ago
  That's reasonable and also what I would like. But what is the mental model of someone wearing their mask alone in the woods or in their car? So, yes, we should explain why an N95 is better than a handkerchief, but it seems like there are plenty of people who don't care about the details and just need to be told that one is more effective.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - kadoban 5y ago
    The mental model of many wearing masks "alone" is that it's more annoying to take the mask on and off all the time than it is to just leave it on. Also, touching the mask constantly leads to concerns about contaminating your hands and then spreading that.
- astrange 5y ago
  When Semmelweiss invented handwashing, all the other doctors ignored him because they didn't like his model, even though he had empirical evidence. Similarly, people like to argue against things like the minimum wage because it doesn't fit some economic model, but they don't realize those models are made up post-hoc to fit older real world data that turned out to be biased and incomplete. Oh, and the West had to deal with scurvy for hundreds of years after discovering the cure (lemon juice) because we'd invented the food poisoning and germ theories of diseases and so we refused to believe you could cure one with food. So don't worry too much about modeling things.
auxym 5y ago
Last I checked in Canada, N95 masks are still about 3$ a pop for disposable, single use masks from industrial distributors. Pre pandemic, we bought 3M 8210s for about 15 cents in boxes of 160. I wouldn't call the current situation available and cheap. Oh, and if you thought surgical masks were mildly uncomfortable, N95s are an order of magnitude worst. They pretty much need a perfect seal with your face and the 3Ms use a really tight rubber band to achieve that. 2 bands, actually. I currently work on site and wear surgical masks all day, it's fine. Not sure I would want to do the same if it was N95s.
- Louis_Sarwal 5y ago
  The discomfort is a sign that they may work. Not proof--but a sign. They are expensive, and I do not reccommend wearing them. I do not reccommend doing anything, expecially anything that has a high chance of bringing unknown costs.
- mhb 5y ago
  3M 8210s are US $26 for 20 now. $1.30 per mask seems pretty reasonable to me, but I've never bought them in industrial quantities so don't have that anchor. I've worn N95s for hours (actually P95s which have a nicer seal) and I agree that they're less comfortable than less effective alternatives. But it is a bit curious that people are concerned enough to be wearing their homemade mask alone in a car or walking outside by themselves but are unwilling to endure the slight additional discomfort of a known effective mask.
  - DanBC 5y ago
    > a known effective mask. ...if you got a real one, and not one of the less effective fakes.
  - admax88q 5y ago
    I wear mine alone in the car or on the sidewalk frequently. Not because I'm "afraid" but because I'm too lazy to take it on and off between every stop I'm going to make. This attitude that people are wearing masks alone because they're afraid and/or stupid is toxic.
DanBC 5y ago
> Once N95 masks became readily available and cheap, it was (and is) mysterious why people weren't being told to wear them Because they're difficult to wear. There are a bunch of photos on social media of HCPs who've got bruised faces after correctly wearing N95 / FPP3 for a day or two.
- mhb 5y ago
  Tens of thousands of doctors manage to wear them every day without injury. So color me skeptical in finding social media testimony less than persuasive that a real issue exists with the proper use of masks.

by mhb 5y ago

mulmen 5y ago

If you tell me how something works and it fits within my mental model of the world then I will trust you. I will add this information to my mental model of the world. If you tell me something works but can't explain how I will consider if the claim is worth evaluating then attempt to understand it myself before accepting it. If you tell me to trust you with no explanation I will immediately distrust you.

mhb 5y ago
That's reasonable and also what I would like. But what is the mental model of someone wearing their mask alone in the woods or in their car? So, yes, we should explain why an N95 is better than a handkerchief, but it seems like there are plenty of people who don't care about the details and just need to be told that one is more effective.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kadoban 5y ago
  The mental model of many wearing masks "alone" is that it's more annoying to take the mask on and off all the time than it is to just leave it on. Also, touching the mask constantly leads to concerns about contaminating your hands and then spreading that.
astrange 5y ago
When Semmelweiss invented handwashing, all the other doctors ignored him because they didn't like his model, even though he had empirical evidence. Similarly, people like to argue against things like the minimum wage because it doesn't fit some economic model, but they don't realize those models are made up post-hoc to fit older real world data that turned out to be biased and incomplete. Oh, and the West had to deal with scurvy for hundreds of years after discovering the cure (lemon juice) because we'd invented the food poisoning and germ theories of diseases and so we refused to believe you could cure one with food. So don't worry too much about modeling things.

auxym 5y ago

Last I checked in Canada, N95 masks are still about 3$ a pop for disposable, single use masks from industrial distributors. Pre pandemic, we bought 3M 8210s for about 15 cents in boxes of 160. I wouldn't call the current situation available and cheap. Oh, and if you thought surgical masks were mildly uncomfortable, N95s are an order of magnitude worst. They pretty much need a perfect seal with your face and the 3Ms use a really tight rubber band to achieve that. 2 bands, actually. I currently work on site and wear surgical masks all day, it's fine. Not sure I would want to do the same if it was N95s.

Louis_Sarwal 5y ago
The discomfort is a sign that they may work. Not proof--but a sign. They are expensive, and I do not reccommend wearing them. I do not reccommend doing anything, expecially anything that has a high chance of bringing unknown costs.
mhb 5y ago
3M 8210s are US $26 for 20 now. $1.30 per mask seems pretty reasonable to me, but I've never bought them in industrial quantities so don't have that anchor. I've worn N95s for hours (actually P95s which have a nicer seal) and I agree that they're less comfortable than less effective alternatives. But it is a bit curious that people are concerned enough to be wearing their homemade mask alone in a car or walking outside by themselves but are unwilling to endure the slight additional discomfort of a known effective mask.
- DanBC 5y ago
  > a known effective mask. ...if you got a real one, and not one of the less effective fakes.
- admax88q 5y ago
  I wear mine alone in the car or on the sidewalk frequently. Not because I'm "afraid" but because I'm too lazy to take it on and off between every stop I'm going to make. This attitude that people are wearing masks alone because they're afraid and/or stupid is toxic.

DanBC 5y ago

> Once N95 masks became readily available and cheap, it was (and is) mysterious why people weren't being told to wear them Because they're difficult to wear. There are a bunch of photos on social media of HCPs who've got bruised faces after correctly wearing N95 / FPP3 for a day or two.

mhb 5y ago
Tens of thousands of doctors manage to wear them every day without injury. So color me skeptical in finding social media testimony less than persuasive that a real issue exists with the proper use of masks.