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As a non-native speaker, one fascinating phenomenon for me is the flip side to Uncleftish Beholding[1]. Many latinate words are considered more sophisticated, o
by pdpi 5y ago
As a non-native speaker, one fascinating phenomenon for me is the flip side to Uncleftish Beholding[1]. Many latinate words are considered more sophisticated, or fancier in general, than germanic words.
Because I'm a native speaker of a Romance language, those are precisely the words that I reach for naturally, because they're familiar. What follows is that, past a certain threshold where your English is good enough, there is a very sudden phase change where people around you go from "you speak pretty good English" to "you speak amazing English" with nothing in between — all of a sudden you're perceived as a peer, and you choice of vocabulary then sets you apart. Ever since I've noticed this I've been trying to make my vocabulary "worse" by incorporating more mundane words into it.
1. https://msburkeenglish.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/uncleftish-beholding-aka-atomic-theory.pdf https://msburkeenglish.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/uncleftis...
- biztos 5y agoIf you can do that in a British accent, no matter how bad it is, you will immediately be pundit material in the USA. And also more attractive!
- Daub 5y agoMoving from a British university to an American one, I noticed this. People listened to me more. Scary.
- trashtester 5y agoI wonder if that also applies to someone from the Hebrides. I used to have a supervisor from there, and even his English coleagues often had problem to understand his dialect.... Or is "British" still an euphemism for "English"?
- chris_j 5y agoI (native English speaker) have noticed this a lot. The example that I remember most vividly is receiving advice while trying to cook food on a barbecue: A Portuguese speaking friend suggested that I "move the burgers to the periphery of the barbecue". It make perfect sense but sounded incredibly fancy to me. A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education.
- tcgv 5y agoThat's interesting. I'm a portuguese language native, and I can relate, but not because we talk like this in portuguese: > "move the burgers to the periphery of the barbecue" That would be really formal over here too, the kind of wording that I'd expect in a grilling manual explaining how to use it, but not at a barbecue. I can relate because sometimes I find myself speaking like that when talking to english counterparts, but mostly because when I'm "translating" my thoughts into sentences I have to choose between a group of words of similar meaning, and due to my inexperience, I often choose a less "popular" one. EDIT: After reflecting on this a bit more I also believe I often sound formal when speaking english because it's easier to use more/fancier words for the sake of not being misunderstood than it's to come up with a short, direct sentence that transmits my message in a clear way. It's like adding redundancy to the message for reducing the risk of transmitting unintentional errors ;)
- chris_j 5y ago> That's interesting. I'm a portuguese language native, and I can relate, but not because we talk like this in portuguese: The chap in question was from Portugal. If I understand correctly from your website, you're from Brazil, right? Is there any difference between how that word would be used in Brazilian vs European Portuguese?
- ORioN63 5y agoI'm from Portugal. I'm not aware of any difference regarding that word in particular, but tbh I wouldn't know. I'm always surprised with some of the differences I find from time to time. I can tell you though, that using the word "periferia" is actually common in some place (although a bit rare in most). It's mostly used as a synonym for 'around the borders'. The example you've mentioned: "move the burgers to the periphery of the barbecue", actually seems perfectly fine. It seems a little bit over-detailed, I guess that a bit context-dependent but I wouldn't bat an eye to the equivalent of "move them to the periphery". From what I recall 'periferia' is also commonly used in TV news.
- aikinai 5y agoJapanese is similar. Chinese-origin words usually sound more sophisticated than pure Japanese words.
- Bayart 5y agoThe dynamic between Chinese and Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese in East Asia is very similar to the one between French and English, or more broadly Latin/Greek and all European languages. It's a good example to use for both sides (whether it is Easterners learning European languages or Westerners leaning East-Asian ones).
- refactor_master 5y agoJapanese does take the cake though! If you thought silent letters or weird pronunciations were bad, try replacing every second word with an emoji and guess the pronunciation. Or if everything was spelled according to the rules of the English “ghoti” :p
- aikinai 5y agoI wouldn’t say Japanese is hard to pronounce once you get used to it. Obviously without kanji it’s perfectly deterministic, but even with kanji there are enough patterns you tend to just have a sense how to pronounce it. Except for names. Maybe I’m just not at that level, but I’ve spoken it for years and still have no idea when I see most names unless I’m familiar with it.
- Bancakes 5y agoThat looks fantastic, wish Anglish was more widespread.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- hob_code 5y agoRichard Feynman noted something similar in his story about traveling to Brazil and learning Portuguese[1]. People would compliment him for using larger elegant sounding words, when really he just couldn't remember simpler words. 1. https://southerncrossreview.org/81/feynman-brazil.html https://southerncrossreview.org/81/feynman-brazil.html
- teddyh 5y agoAt one standards meeting, Pete went out to dinner with the Italians, to discover that only one of them spoke a little English. In an attempt to be polite, he told them, “Machina ipsam culturam non habet” (Latin for “the computer has no culture of its own”). The English-speaker replied, “Pete, there’s nothing wrong with your Italian, except that you use all those archaic words.” — Jacques Vallee, The Network Revolution: Confessions of a Computer Scientist (1982) https://books.google.com/books?id=6f8VqnZaPQwC https://books.google.com/books?id=6f8VqnZaPQwC
- BrandoElFollito 5y agoOh thank you, I just commented about that elsewhere and you provided the link :)
- amirkdv 5y agoThe dual origin story of the English language is quite fascinating! There's a Wikipedia page dedicated to a list of just what you described, synonymous words with Romance vs Germanic origins. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_with_dual_French_and_Anglo-Saxon_variations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_with_d...
- nkrisc 5y agoThe first section with the foods helps illustrate the class difference: the Germanic words we still use in English to describe the animal, while the Norman words we still use to describe the processed food products from the animal.
- patrickthebold 5y agoI noticed dove/pigeon on there: I was taking an Arabic class and the professor was Egyptian. At one point she mentioned 'Pigeons of peace', which sounded ridiculous to my ears since 'doves' are a peace symbol and not pigeons, even though they are the same animal.
- irrational 5y agoI had no idea doves and pigeons are the same animal. Fascinating!
- routerl 5y agoYeah, I've had the same experience, but I've really had to resist that instinct, to avoid sounding too pompous. E.g. "ameliorate" comes more naturally to the tip of my tongue than "improve", but it's almost never a better word to use.
- lisper 5y agoI emigrated to the US at age five from Germany and learned a lot of my English from Peanuts comics. One of the words I learned from that strip was "incidentally" which I used for years before someone told me about "by the way". I got beat up a lot too.
- benrbray 5y ago> I got beat up a lot too As someone born in the 90s I'm always shocked to hear about how culturally accepted it was for children to be physically abused at school in my parents' generation. People talk about getting beaten up at school like it was nothing, like they deserved it for talking funny or liking comic books. It's so normal that the children's shows I grew up with on Nickelodeon / Cartoon Network / etc all had the main characters getting beaten up at school as a regular plot point. I just can't believe it. I'm so glad it is largely seen as unacceptable these days.
- lisper 5y agoMy family emigrated in 1969. To Kentucky. Physical and mental abuse was, sadly, quite common and accepted, especially towards anyone perceived as an outsider (which I very obviously was). And unfortunately my parents were completely clueless about how to handle it because it was new to them too. It took me literally 20 years before I finally figured out how to navigate American culture, and even today I sometimes feel like a stranger in a strange land, especially watching the political trends (which, as a native German and ethnic Jew, are absolutely freakin' terrifying).
- JohnWhigham 5y agoUh, it's arguably worse than ever today. It just doesn't happen on the playground anymore. I contend the situation was better when it was out in the open and not on handheld devices.
- not2b 5y agoI think some of this was because of the Norman conquest. For a few hundred years the nobility spoke Norman French and the peasants spoke old English. So our words for animals are Germanic and our words for meat come from French. Beef is boeuf, but that word is only for the meat. The refined words were from French and Latin. If there was another word it was lower class.
- TacticalCoder 5y agoI hear you! A long time ago I was in the US and I used the word "labyrinth" because I didn't know "maze" and, well, in french for a maze we say "labyrinthe"... I still remember the reaction of my american friend, very surprised by my "advanced" english vocabulary. We native romance language speakers have it easy ; )
- cafard 5y agoRichard Feynman had a similar story about speaking Portuguese, coming up with a longish word because he couldn't remember the common one, and impressing his hostess. But is "labyrinth" from a romance language? It appears in Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon with the remark that it is a foreign word.
- mytailorisrich 5y agoIt's the Greek word that was adopted in Latin and then romance languages.
- shakow 5y agoIt's not originating from romance languages, but it's the “default” (and virtually only) word in romance languages (well, at least French).
- trashtester 5y agoThe Norwegian word ("labyrint") is also based on the Greek word (possibly through Latin, somehow). Ironically, though, "maze" may come from the Norwegian word "mas". https://www.etymonline.com/word/maze https://www.etymonline.com/word/maze
- Broken_Hippo 5y agoToday, I've learned a new Norwegian word - labyrint. I've not stumbled across it. Thank you.
- kwoff 5y agoWhen I was learning/using French, kinda the inverse of what you said, I'd try to think of a sophisticated English word to use. It could even bleed back into English speaking, for example I would "recount" (raconter) something rather than "tell" it.
- karaterobot 5y agoThere's a really fascinating guide for English writing which is all about this: how the best writers in English have used the cultural connotations of Germanic and Latinate words for effect. When to using one or the other, but also playing them off each other, or using the tension between them, and so on. Ahh, here's the book: Classical English Style, by Ward Farnsworth [1]. 1: https://www.librarything.com/work/24739629 https://www.librarything.com/work/24739629
- fidesomnes 5y agoIt is very important to know your audience in English. Speaking at the right level of the socio-economic audience will allow you to mingle freely with people in all walks of life as a peer instead of an outsider. Also if you think Latinate words are received more favorably the reaction you get from people when speaking restored classical Latin pronunciation is incredible.
- jan_Inkepa 5y agoYeah, it's much better compared to other languages pairs, where the diminishing returns set in hard after a certain point...can be rough for morale!
- mattkrause 5y agoThis goes the other way too. I've definitely gone with `consecuentemente` in Spanish because it's an English cognate and I couldn't remember whether I should have used `porque` (=because), or one of the annoyingly similar `por que`(=so that), `por qué` (=why), or `porqué` (=a reason).
- xwolfi 5y agoIt's very obvious, you're right. I'm French and I sometimes I have to prove people the words are in an English dictionary while they're absolute basic 6-yo level in French. I remember "ameliorate" that an american friend (an adult) didn't even know (but again this guy mixed Portugal and Porto Rico so maybe not the best sample lol), while for me it was clearly an easy cheat because I had more trouble reaching for "enhance". Ofc since I'm also an ass, I like to claim English "stole" all those French word then proceeded to misspell and massacre them.
- Oreb 5y ago> I like to claim English "stole" all those French word then proceeded to misspell and massacre them. Fair enough, but then French is nothing more than horribly misspelled, massacred and ungrammatical Latin. Of course the same could be said about any other current language, after replacing Latin with whatever our ancestors spoke a couple of thousand years ago.
- owenversteeg 5y agoFunny enough, a similar thing (using obscure, ten-dollar words instead of simple ones) happens with many Russians learning English. It happens for a totally different reason - obviously Russian is a Slavic, not Romance language. Turns out that most high quality translated material for Russian is old literature and scientific papers. So that’s what the translators are trained on, and that’s what many Russians speaking English sound like. As an example, a friend of mine was just learning English and didn’t yet know words as simple as “stairs”, but would use ten-dollar words like “prurient”, “strumpet” and “veritable”.
- e17 5y agoI have witnessed this phenomenon living in London as a native of the city. A new-to-London Russian colleague of mine used ornate phraseology and what I would consider as 'posh' words quite regularly. A major phrase for her was "It seems to me" as a precursor to saying virtually any opinion. I never knew the reason for it though, so TIL.
- cogman10 5y agoI had an Austrian friend that learned all his English from star trek TNG and DS9... it was amazing :D He'd watched the series in German and then in English and knew it well enough to pick things up. To my ear, his English was pretty good. That said, the 2 groups of non-native speakers that have impressed me the most are people from Sweden and Norway. I've mistaken more than one of them for native speakers (to their delight) :D
- dnautics 5y agoI desperately want to do this in the other direction, but I can't figure out how to stream foreign dubbed trek in the states and I don't have a DVD player anymore... It may take a bit more effort.
- n4bz0r 5y agoIn case you are curious what the exact reason might be: "It seems to me" is most likely coming from the much less fancy sounding, and more casual "мне кажется" (mnye kazhetsya). "Mnye" would be "to me", and "kazhetsya" could be represented as "it seems". I say "could be" because there is no direct translation for "kazhetsya" as far as I'm aware. The closest (and most direct) translation of "kazhetsya" that I can think of, and retains the meaning would be "it seems likely that <...>". What she was trying to communicate was "I think", I think. (pun intended)
- mathieuh 5y agoYep, I’m a native English and French speaker and when I speak in English to someone whose first language is a Romance language I make an effort to use more Latin-origin words, which does make the English sound very formal to native speakers. Haven’t had a chance to try it with folk whose first tongue is a Germanic tongue because they all speak really good English, but if I came across someone who didn’t have great English I’d probably use more Germanic words. I find this subconscious perception of speech with more Latin-origin words interesting though. Something about Germanic words just feels more earthy and real, Latin-origin words feel quite flowery and sort of hard to pin down.
- joeberon 5y agoRecently I've been learning German and one of the examples was "Hier darf man nicht rauchen" (Here one may not smoke) and it has a note after "NB: Not pretentious in German". I found that quite interesting
- the_rectifier 5y agoOn various occasions I've been asked by native speakers to use shorter sentences and simpler words. Sigh.
- torstenvl 5y agoYep! The reverse is somewhat true as well. When I had to get a photo ID in France I couldn't remember whether «noir et blanc» was idiomatic and in that order, so I said «monochrome» instead. The photographer was impressed that I knew such a "technical" photography term.
- asimpletune 5y agoI think the reciprocal is also true. I’m a native speaker, who speaks Spanish as A second language. It’s sort of amazing how using “fancy”English words often results in correctly guessing correct Spanish cognates. I guess one downside though is that people don’t perceive me as having said anything remarkable because it’s all quite normal to them.
- wirrbel 5y agoI (native German) realised a similar thing happening because I tend to use some syntactical features that lend itself naturally to Germans, like use of "whom" (corresponds to German 'wem', but 'wem' is pretty standard German and 'whom' is hardly used in colloquial English).
- throwaway894345 5y agoAn interesting corollary is that I can sort of "channel" French more easily by thinking about it as "fancy" English with respect to grammar and vocabulary (and of course, a French accent). I similarly experienced French people praising my mastery of the language even though I can only understand like 40-60% of what a French speaker is saying to me (although I'm not sure if this is because of my "fancy English" approach or if I'm just inordinately good at the French accent or if the French are just pitying me by telling me my French is very good).
- FabHK 5y ago> Because I'm a native speaker of a Romance language, those are precisely the words that I reach for naturally, because they're familiar. My Spanish girl friend at the time was among the first batches to take the computer-adaptive version of the GRE (which increases difficulty as you get questions right, and vice versa). While preparing for the verbal part, she noted that the "difficult" words being explained were often words she knew (to lament, intransigent), while the "simple" explanation involved words she had to learn (to mourn, unyielding). This could then lead to a positive feedback cycle for native Spanish speakers taking the test - get the first few questions right, get "harder" questions with long Latin words (easy!), or get the first few questions wrong, and get "easier" questions with short Germanic words (oh no). Her test score was indeed many standard deviations away from the paper based practice tests she had taken - but only on the verbal part.
- ncpa-cpl 5y agoI can relate to this as a Spanish speaker that used English text books in high school. Many of the advanced words in vocabulary and spelling were easy to understand and spell for us.
- TomK32 5y agoOne take I remember from The Adventure of English[0]: When it's in the kitchen it's germanic/anglo-saxon, when it's in the lord's dining room it's a French (vulgar Latin). Romanized languages are an important part of English, though not that much in those most common words[1]. English is the product of quite a few invaders introducing new elements to a language that was itself invasive. In regards to "amazing English", how about picking one obscure dialect like Scotish and perfecting that so that the other 95% of English speaker take you as a Scots/Welsh/Californian and don't ask any more questions? [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1XQx9pGGd0&list=PLbBvyau8q9v4hcgNYBp4LCyhMHSyq-lhe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1XQx9pGGd0&list=PLbBvyau8q9... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_language_influences_in_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_language_influences_in...
- matheusmoreira 5y agoWord choice is vital. I was once outed as a non-native english speaker because of a single word. There's an old MMORPG that I used to play with friends as a kid. It has an item called copper shield. My friends and I didn't speak english at the time so we'd misspell and mispronounce the item as cooper shield. We had no idea what copper even meant, to us it was just the name of the shield. We all know what copper means now, but that didn't change our understanding of the shield. A few years ago I decided to create a new account and play again for old time's sake. I joined a party and started talking to people. The second I said "cooper shield" I got a private message in my native language from a guy who learned it by playing the game with us. Because of that highly specific misspelling, he could tell not only that I was a foreigner but also which country I was from.
- canadianfella 5y agoHow can one tell what country you are from based on the copper/cooper mistake? I don’t understand.