13 ms·

The whole freenode kerfluffle

152 points by gbrown_ 5y ago

javajosh 5y ago
Hi, I don't really use freenode, but even after your explaination, I don't understand what Andrew's big sin is - that he wants to keep IRC like it was when he loved it in his youth? Okay, but what specifically does that mean - what is the down-side? So far all I've read is that freenode is owned by someone, and now he's exerting control that others don't like, but no details of what that control is. BTW, "Let's..." is not misspelled. "Kerfluffle[sic]" is, but it's a misspelling I prefer, so good on ya!
- ivanbakel 5y ago
  >and now he's exerting control that others don't like, but no details of what that control is. From my understanding, that's the point. The volunteers who ran Freenode were told that Andrew would be completely unable to exert any control over the server - and now that has turned out to not be the case. The taking of control itself was a betrayal of a previous agreement, and produced a status quo that the freenode people weren't happy with. There's also allegations of forced advertising and "changes to network operations" on the Libera Chat website[0], which may have been significant to some of the volunteers. [0]: https://libera.chat/ https://libera.chat/
- q3k 5y ago
  The problem is that he wants to change freenode into something different [1] than it is, and he attempts to execute this on basis of 'I own freenode limited so you have to do as I say' [2]. Complete with supposed legal threats in case of non-compliance. This is something that works for companies with a clear ownership structure and typical employer/employee power dynamics, but not for volunteer-driven communities like freenode - in which people worked for free to build something that they believed in, and under the impression of the community being fully self-governed. What do you expect from these volunteers now, to just continue working for free on something that they now don't agree with, and with a person who obviously cares more about control than the service itself? This likely doesn't impact me or you directly. But indirectly, if I see _all_ staff flee from a project that I interacted with, I'm following them. After all, these are the people that made and maintained Freenode into what it is today, the name is just a technicality. [1] "On Decentralization", https://archive.is/NH1LN https://archive.is/NH1LN ; https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss [2] https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a9a93ded5b7d162c3f58bdd66b8f491#file-freenode-resign-letter-txt-L126 https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a9a93ded5b7d162c3f58bd...
  - zelon88 5y ago
    > This is something that works for companies with a clear ownership structure The ownership structure is clear, it is just unpopular within the community. There seems to be this sense of entitlement among Freenode developers and volunteers. You never had equity, but you thought you did. Whether or not that is the result of being misled is irrelevant. You have no stake. That's what "volunteers" are. Non stakeholding contributors. You contribute so long as the direction of the business is compatible with your morals. Nobody owes you a community. Why is anyone surprised that this napkin diplomacy failed?
    - pmlnr 5y ago
      ^^^ this If there isn't a legal entity, the thing can't be protected. If there is a legal entity, and you're not officially part of it, then you're not part of it when it comes to scenarios like this. Yes, it sucks. Yes, the internet is different from 20 years ago. (Yet one still can't own a domain in the sense of owning a book, just rent a domain for some time, so certain things haven't changed, but this is offtopic.) I've been where the former freenode staff is now. I was part of a community site a long time ago, where the actual owners decided to close it down, and there was absolutely nothing I could do, despite being a contributer, an organiser, etc - in essence, a volunteer - for them, because I wasn't on any paper, anywhere.
      - zelon88 5y ago
        Thank you! I also want to point out that this is normal free-market stuff. The community is obviously strong enough to leave this company practically high-and-dry, and it is also obviously strong enough to maintain it's own fork if it chooses to do so. This is just iteration at work. If the new Freenode owners can't fix their mistakes; they will fail. So what. If the old Freenode developers are serious, they will succeed.
    - someguydave 5y ago
      I am not surprised. I don’t think any human on earth could give these “volunteer” “staffers” a command which they would obey.
- roflc0ptic 5y ago
  The behavior, as I understand it, is that Lee and company behaved mendaciously, taking what was a community/volunteer "staff" run enterprise and legalistically maneuvering to turn it into his own fiefdom without consent or even a modicum of transparency. Maybe this will have no operational effect, but it registers as terrifically unethical and destructive - he's predictably alienated and driven off most of the people running freenode. When people behave unethically and destructively in one scenario, it's easy to expect them to behave unethically and destructively in other scenarios. It's unacceptable from a governance perspective. Moving away from freenode is simple risk mitigation.
  - bitshiftfaced 5y ago
    Fiefdom? What do you mean?
    - silviot 5y ago
      I'm no native speaker nor have I ever heard that word before. Looking online I found this definition: fiefdom /ˈfiːfdəm/ a territory or sphere of operation controlled by a particular person or group. "a mafia boss who has turned the town into his private fiefdom"
      - jacobolus 5y ago
        A fiefdom is the domain of a feudal lord. Like "kingdom" but where the lord could be a duke, earl, baron, ... Historically, lords had nearly absolute legal authority over the peasants living in their domain.
      - wott 5y ago
        'fiefdom' in English with the slightly redundant -dom suffix, simply 'fief' in French (a term commonly used), and closer to the root, 'feudo' in Italian and Spanish.
    - roflc0ptic 5y ago
      Yes, what the other commenters said. By exerting unilateral control, he's destroying the existing democratic governance mechanisms and making it a sort of rule by dictatorship. If you metaphorically treat freenode as territory, you can say that it's become Lee's fief, or fiefdom.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  'Kerfluffle' is a hilarious misspelling - sounds like a brand of marshmallow fluff.
  - bargle0 5y ago
    Imagine an ad campaign where disagreements were solved by fluffer nutter sandwiches.
  - roflc0ptic 5y ago
    I get the sense that it's not a mispelling in the sense that Ariadne doesn't know how kerfuffle is spelled. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I also think that the comparison to Ariadne's bunny plushie - i.e. a fluffy thing - is related. Kerfluffle can be read as a portmanteau of kerfuffle and fluffy - a kerfuffle caused by Lee's need for a soft, fluffy thing to protect his ego. Dunno. Deep exegesis that could be entirely off base - maybe it's just a typo.
    - senkora 5y ago
      Kerfluffle is the way I say and spell the word. Wiktionary lists it as a variant: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/kerfluffle https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/kerfluffle
      - roflc0ptic 5y ago
        Oh, cool. Kerfluffle is so much cuter.
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        When you look at the etymology that's clearly a misspelling that has stuck somehow.
        gbear605 5y ago
        Lots of modern English words arose from misspellings (and mishearings) - if one becomes popular, it becomes an English word. That’s how languages evolve, otherwise we’d still be speaking Proto-Indo-European.
- someguydave 5y ago
  This whole affair makes the freenode “volunteer” staff sound like ungovernable children. (They are paid in status so they are not really volunteers)
  - fullstop 5y ago
    > (They are paid in status so they are not really volunteers) Citation Needed. Everything that I have read has stated that they are not paid, with the exception of a reimbursement for the cost of procuring a U2F key.
  - danaris 5y ago
    ....Wow; that's quite a take on the definition of "volunteer."
  - mlatu 5y ago
    Oh ic... I saw an ad for a flat the other day, they were asking for status, I didn't get it then but now it makes sense.
  - kgwxd 5y ago
    They're self-governing, and running a very useful service, and would like to stay that way. When someone walks in a room and declares they're now in control, without any right to do so, you don't just sit back and accept it, that's what children do.
  - g_sch 5y ago
    Great point, I'll ask my landlord if I can pay my rent in status this month.
    - andyana 5y ago
      I know you're joking, but I'd like to see a video of you asking, and of your landlords reaction, for humor :).
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    I think that's an interesting point (about status, at least), even if you're getting mocked for it. I can see the argument that the staff aren't purely charitable volunteers, they are getting a return on their effort. Or they wouldn't do it.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > I don't understand what Andrew's big sin is Lee founded Private Internet Access [1]. They had a history of being sketchy [2] and inexplicably hired Mark Karpeles. I don’t have a connection to Freenode. But I can recognise a bad actor when I see one. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur) [2] https://telegra.ph/Private-Internet-Access-VPN-acquired-by-malware-business-founded-by-former-Israeli-spies-12-01 https://telegra.ph/Private-Internet-Access-VPN-acquired-by-m...
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    He sold pia to an adware company and didn't bother to inform customers.
- tootie 5y ago
  They seem to be attributing a lot malice to his actions that isn't evident. This is the most low stakes power play I've seen play out. Just talk to the guy directly instead of stomping off.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Why are you assuming no private communication happened? They aren't paid anything so setting up a new service with a domain not controlled by the disagreeable party seems to be the rational choice. What are they losing exactly?
    - Macha 5y ago
      Also, there has been plenty of private communication. We know because much of it has leaked.
  - rcxdude 5y ago
    Nothing about the reasons behind his actions are evident, despite repeated questioning. The answers he gives don't add up (a lot of vague mumbling about improving freenode by making it distributed, which seems completely counter to his actual actions).
    - Karunamon 5y ago
      Making it distributed? Isn't that any IRC network with 2 or more servers by definition?
      - rcxdude 5y ago
        Indeed, this is one of the ways in which what he says doesn't make much sense.
        wowaname 5y ago
        Lee expresses interest in decentralised/distributed alternatives to DNS so it does make sense. What doesn't make sense is the fact that I'm seeing a more-homogeneous set of ircops on multiple networks these days.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
that_guy_iain 5y ago
Bribes of oper and money? Aka offering someone a job as a staff member? Am I understanding that correctly?
- q3k 5y ago
  Offering a job position can be bribery. It's not a stretch to interpret that particular chat log as exactly that.
  - that_guy_iain 5y ago
    Bribery for what? What would they be getting other than someone to do staffer work for them?
    - q3k 5y ago
      Influence over the community's perception that freenode is still freenode, and that things are stable, because some staff is still on their side, and because an influential project (Alpine) stayed with freenode.
- inshadows 5y ago
  Whoa! There are now money in IRC?
  - that_guy_iain 5y ago
    The ex-Freenode staff seem to be saying there is. I am also confused.
  - blibble 5y ago
    if he's truthful in saying he funded freenode with more than a million dollars... seems like it I wonder where that money went, especially considering the hosting for all the IRC servers is donated by its sponsors (ISPs)
- speeder 5y ago
  I read the log. That Shane person, literally told Ariadne she would have power to ban whoever she wants, screw with people she doesn't like, punish her enemies... She replied she have no enemies, he tried to point out that is still a good power to have and whatnot. She then explained to him that banning someone from Freenode can damage that person career if they are involved in FOSS community, considering how many important projects communicate only there and all. Later in the conversaion I saw something I interpreted as a kind-of threat too, when in a passing remark Shane mentioned her sexual fetishes. Then he implied that certain Linux distros have advantages in Freenode, and Alpine could have it too... I think you get the point, it is not just a job offer, the way he was writing looked like more someone trying to imitate characters in the Godfather movie.
enriquto 5y ago
So freenode has suffered a hostile take over by the korean imperial family. No shit! On vit une époque formidable.
- rsynnott 5y ago
  Well, no, not the Korean imperial family. There is, obviously, no Korean imperial family anymore. Lee is a pretender.
  - enriquto 5y ago
    all monarchs are illegitimate pretenders if you think about it.
    - kwk1 5y ago
      The word pretender ("to reach/stretch out") in this context simply means a claimant for a position that is occupied or gone. It has nothing to do with the modern connotation of someone making something up.
nickysielicki 5y ago
I was a PIA customer precisely because I knew they donated to freenode (among other things; ie: financial sponsorship for WireGuard). Doesn’t seem to me like staff are fully aware of what they’re destroying and how there will never be another real dominant IRC network. Freenode was it. Slack and discord have killed IRC for a lot of things already, and this is now the final nail in the coffin. “Libra”-whatever will not last long, and neither will freenode without staff. Is all of this worth it? Did he really do anything that bad? Hasn’t a few years of financial donation to various open source projects bought any good will? Isn’t there a reasonable explanation for trying to put some of these things in LLCs and formal organizations, etc.? Someone has to own the domain, right? It doesn’t sound to me like he was asking for a lot of effort. Anyway, too late to cry about it, it’s done and over with now. RIP to IRC. I guess I’ll see you guys on Discord! I love the modern internet!!!
- mlatu 5y ago
  > Someone has to own the domain, right? Why not an association then? Why must it always be someONE who owns something? Communal property is the way forwards, not setting up fences.
  - jlokier 5y ago
    It is already owned by an association, a non-profit called Freenode Limited.
    - jlokier 5y ago
      Nice downvote for looking up a simple legal fact, to address the misleading impression from the GP that an individual person holds the domain. Perhaps this will be downvoted as well because the childishness is strong on this issue, but for the benefit of anyone who cares, the parent comment is at least technically correct (the best kind of correct). The domain at the centre of this controversy is owned by an incorporated non-profit association registered as a company limited by guarantee, not by a "someone".
- RIMR 5y ago
milliams 5y ago
> "Let’s [sic] take IRC further" Why the "sic"? Is there something wrong with contracting "Let us" in this way?
- hesk 5y ago
  I read that to mean that there is not "us" only "me".
- IshKebab 5y ago
  Nope. [sic] is definitely wrong there. Looks like it has been fixed though.
  - mjthompson 5y ago
    [sic] [sic] :)
fouc 5y ago
> When freenode announced that it was joining with Private Internet Access in 2017, the domain name, as well as unspecified other “assets”, were sold to one Andrew Lee via a holding company. Staff were uncertain but assured that PIA was to have no operational influence. > In early 2021, that changed. New advertising was pushed onto the freenode website without warning. The head of staff at the time ultimately resigned rather than explain. In the time since, there have been changes to network operations for which we have received no explanation. > Control of freenode infrastructure will soon be transferred to Freenode Limited and its agents. Seems like Andrew Lee is maneuvering to take control of the freenode irc network infrastructure. I would've assumed that the freenode irc network is comprised of volunteer servers.
- techrat 5y ago
  > I would've assumed that the freenode irc network is comprised of volunteer servers. It is. That makes the whole situation that much more suspect, why someone like Lee should desire to take over a network not knowing that it consists of sponsor servers. Seeing what happened with Snoonet (a desolate wasteland), I fully expect to happen to Freenode as well. Shame. All for one man's ego.
  - Operyl 5y ago
    Snoonet was a desolate wasteland long before the PIA “merger.” Since then, Discord has largely eaten up subreddits for communication platform of choice.
- sp332 5y ago
  It is, but the legal challenge would be expensive according to https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461 https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461
aliljet 5y ago
So, is this the first bifurcation? OFTC or Libera. Yesterday, I thought it was just Libera.
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  OFTC has existed a long time, it's an option for projects that want to presumably just step out of this present drama entirely. Libera is the new Freenode, in terms of management staff and likely rules and policy.
kemonocode 5y ago
I hope this entire ordeal makes it all clear that when a company snatches up a community project, it'll be very likely with the intention to monetize it down the road, and I really think the changes being vaguely alluded to were oriented towards that.
jpswade 5y ago
Do I miss IRC drama? No I don’t think so.
josteink 5y ago
Reposting my comment from a earlier thread. This story is just so unclear and leaves me full of questions. It’s a complete mess, despite the numerous semi-official statements trying to clear things up. Things I’m wondering about: - why was freenode being sold in the first place? - for what was it sold? For money? And who was paid for the sale? - Did whatever freenode was sold for go back to support the IRC-network? Or did someone weasel it away for themselves? - why would anyone buy and IRC network? What did they expect to gain by owning the network? - Why was a volunteer-run IRC network even registered as a business which could be sold? Can anyone please help me understand?
- progval 5y ago
  > - why was freenode being sold in the first place? > - for what was it sold? For money? And who was paid for the sale? > - Why was a volunteer-run IRC network even registered as a business which could be sold? It was to organize and sponsor a live conference ("Freenode #live"). The contract is not public, and not even (now former) freenode staff knows the terms. See the first two paragraphs here: https://gist.github.com/edk0/478fb4351bc3ba458288d6878032669d https://gist.github.com/edk0/478fb4351bc3ba458288d6878032669... > - Did whatever freenode was sold for go back to support the IRC-network? Or did someone weasel it away for themselves? It was mainly to support the conference, so this was a success. It's unknown if any other money was exchange. > - why would anyone buy and IRC network? What did they expect to gain by owning the network? There is a tentative explanation in the OP, but we may never know the actual reasons unless we are Andrew Lee himself.
cookguyruffles 5y ago
Speaking as an IRC lifer, every article I read about this fails to actually make any kind of cohesive point about what's going on and why it is bad. Explain like I'm 5 please? Who controlled nickserv/chanserv before this Andrew fellow? It seems there is some leap to "omfg he's taking control of services!" without mention of who is /losing/ control. It seems perhaps a large chunk of story is missing here. Meanwhile I'll probably continue using Freenode until it starts serving Viagra ads during connection or something similarly tangibly evil. Right now I just see a bunch of dumb IRC drama. It's a chat network, come on.
- ok123456 5y ago
  There is no real problem. The freenode "staffers" just don't like the fact that someone was able to win the irc game (i.e., gaining more power) without following their invented arbitrary bureaucracy and dedicating their life to idling in the right set of channels. This whole thing is really off topic and should be taken to ##wrongplanet .
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Every organization in which the people have real autonomy and power is literally an invented arbitrary bureaucracy. You just invented a really long way to describe civilization. People don't like it when money trumps all other factors in a concern that perceptively wasn't for sale and threats and dishonesty don't help either. It appears that nearly everyone involved believes there is a problem including Lee who now needs new paid staff to run what is likely a dwindling community. It sounds like you have an ax to grind personally.
    - ok123456 5y ago
      Nah. I've seen much larger IRC networks run with a fraction of the officiousness and ornery behavior from freenode "staffers". It's not a general problem with civilization needing "law and order" or whatever.
      - 5y ago
jefurii 5y ago
Seems like this may have been avoided if Freenode had just registered as an actual nonprofit that could have held/owned the domain and infrastructure.
- jlokier 5y ago
  Ironically, that is in fact what happened. It's called Freenode Limited, and it's a registered nonprofit which holds the domain. The trouble is the people who have left are unhappy with how it was done.
imode 5y ago
I've been on Freenode since 2006. I've been known as 'imode' for a couple of years now. I called out Lee, and he took my nickname away. There are already abuses of power going on, and he has no legal authority over any of the infrastructure. imode: Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable
- wowaname 5y ago
  - NickServ (NickServ@services.): Information on imode (account imode): - NickServ (NickServ@services.): Registered : Oct 05 03:45:24 2016 (4y 32w 6d ago) - NickServ (NickServ@services.): Last seen : (about 0 weeks ago) - NickServ (NickServ@services.): Flags : HideMail, Private - NickServ (NickServ@services.): imode has enabled nick protection - NickServ (NickServ@services.): *** End of Info *** - You are now known as imode You're still in services DB and I'm able to use your nick. The "temporarily unavailable" error is literally that; your nick was probably recently protected by services, in which case you'd have to `/ns release` for it back.
0xbadcafebee 5y ago
This is like reading about the political intrigue of an ant colony. (jk ant colonies are fascinating)
Sunspark 5y ago
Presenting an alternative user perspective here, I would go on freenode, but only for sports channels (really, and how that happened is because on reddit before they started promoting discord, there was a window where IRC was advertised for sports chat, usually during game nights). Freenode wasn't only for technology channels, though they were absolutely the majority. My experience with freenode has been a positive one, the sports channels had the same crowd of regulars and there were no real issues. Freenode was very nice, especially compared to the shower that EFNet was in the 90s and I am sorry to see that the freenode network is having troubles now. IRC is a great technology, it's too difficult for the average user to understand, and this is not necessarily a bad thing.

152 points by gbrown_ 5y ago

Hi, I don't really use freenode, but even after your explaination, I don't understand what Andrew's big sin is - that he wants to keep IRC like it was when he loved it in his youth? Okay, but what specifically does that mean - what is the down-side? So far all I've read is that freenode is owned by someone, and now he's exerting control that others don't like, but no details of what that control is. BTW, "Let's..." is not misspelled. "Kerfluffle[sic]" is, but it's a misspelling I prefer, so good on ya!

ivanbakel 5y ago
>and now he's exerting control that others don't like, but no details of what that control is. From my understanding, that's the point. The volunteers who ran Freenode were told that Andrew would be completely unable to exert any control over the server - and now that has turned out to not be the case. The taking of control itself was a betrayal of a previous agreement, and produced a status quo that the freenode people weren't happy with. There's also allegations of forced advertising and "changes to network operations" on the Libera Chat website[0], which may have been significant to some of the volunteers. [0]: https://libera.chat/ https://libera.chat/
q3k 5y ago
The problem is that he wants to change freenode into something different [1] than it is, and he attempts to execute this on basis of 'I own freenode limited so you have to do as I say' [2]. Complete with supposed legal threats in case of non-compliance. This is something that works for companies with a clear ownership structure and typical employer/employee power dynamics, but not for volunteer-driven communities like freenode - in which people worked for free to build something that they believed in, and under the impression of the community being fully self-governed. What do you expect from these volunteers now, to just continue working for free on something that they now don't agree with, and with a person who obviously cares more about control than the service itself? This likely doesn't impact me or you directly. But indirectly, if I see _all_ staff flee from a project that I interacted with, I'm following them. After all, these are the people that made and maintained Freenode into what it is today, the name is just a technicality. [1] "On Decentralization", https://archive.is/NH1LN https://archive.is/NH1LN ; https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss [2] https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a9a93ded5b7d162c3f58bdd66b8f491#file-freenode-resign-letter-txt-L126 https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a9a93ded5b7d162c3f58bd...
- zelon88 5y ago
  > This is something that works for companies with a clear ownership structure The ownership structure is clear, it is just unpopular within the community. There seems to be this sense of entitlement among Freenode developers and volunteers. You never had equity, but you thought you did. Whether or not that is the result of being misled is irrelevant. You have no stake. That's what "volunteers" are. Non stakeholding contributors. You contribute so long as the direction of the business is compatible with your morals. Nobody owes you a community. Why is anyone surprised that this napkin diplomacy failed?
  - pmlnr 5y ago
    ^^^ this If there isn't a legal entity, the thing can't be protected. If there is a legal entity, and you're not officially part of it, then you're not part of it when it comes to scenarios like this. Yes, it sucks. Yes, the internet is different from 20 years ago. (Yet one still can't own a domain in the sense of owning a book, just rent a domain for some time, so certain things haven't changed, but this is offtopic.) I've been where the former freenode staff is now. I was part of a community site a long time ago, where the actual owners decided to close it down, and there was absolutely nothing I could do, despite being a contributer, an organiser, etc - in essence, a volunteer - for them, because I wasn't on any paper, anywhere.
    - zelon88 5y ago
      Thank you! I also want to point out that this is normal free-market stuff. The community is obviously strong enough to leave this company practically high-and-dry, and it is also obviously strong enough to maintain it's own fork if it chooses to do so. This is just iteration at work. If the new Freenode owners can't fix their mistakes; they will fail. So what. If the old Freenode developers are serious, they will succeed.
  - someguydave 5y ago
    I am not surprised. I don’t think any human on earth could give these “volunteer” “staffers” a command which they would obey.
roflc0ptic 5y ago
The behavior, as I understand it, is that Lee and company behaved mendaciously, taking what was a community/volunteer "staff" run enterprise and legalistically maneuvering to turn it into his own fiefdom without consent or even a modicum of transparency. Maybe this will have no operational effect, but it registers as terrifically unethical and destructive - he's predictably alienated and driven off most of the people running freenode. When people behave unethically and destructively in one scenario, it's easy to expect them to behave unethically and destructively in other scenarios. It's unacceptable from a governance perspective. Moving away from freenode is simple risk mitigation.
- bitshiftfaced 5y ago
  Fiefdom? What do you mean?
  - silviot 5y ago
    I'm no native speaker nor have I ever heard that word before. Looking online I found this definition: fiefdom /ˈfiːfdəm/ a territory or sphere of operation controlled by a particular person or group. "a mafia boss who has turned the town into his private fiefdom"
    - jacobolus 5y ago
      A fiefdom is the domain of a feudal lord. Like "kingdom" but where the lord could be a duke, earl, baron, ... Historically, lords had nearly absolute legal authority over the peasants living in their domain.
    - wott 5y ago
      'fiefdom' in English with the slightly redundant -dom suffix, simply 'fief' in French (a term commonly used), and closer to the root, 'feudo' in Italian and Spanish.
  - roflc0ptic 5y ago
    Yes, what the other commenters said. By exerting unilateral control, he's destroying the existing democratic governance mechanisms and making it a sort of rule by dictatorship. If you metaphorically treat freenode as territory, you can say that it's become Lee's fief, or fiefdom.
chrisseaton 5y ago
'Kerfluffle' is a hilarious misspelling - sounds like a brand of marshmallow fluff.
- bargle0 5y ago
  Imagine an ad campaign where disagreements were solved by fluffer nutter sandwiches.
- roflc0ptic 5y ago
  I get the sense that it's not a mispelling in the sense that Ariadne doesn't know how kerfuffle is spelled. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I also think that the comparison to Ariadne's bunny plushie - i.e. a fluffy thing - is related. Kerfluffle can be read as a portmanteau of kerfuffle and fluffy - a kerfuffle caused by Lee's need for a soft, fluffy thing to protect his ego. Dunno. Deep exegesis that could be entirely off base - maybe it's just a typo.
  - senkora 5y ago
    Kerfluffle is the way I say and spell the word. Wiktionary lists it as a variant: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/kerfluffle https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/kerfluffle
    - roflc0ptic 5y ago
      Oh, cool. Kerfluffle is so much cuter.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      When you look at the etymology that's clearly a misspelling that has stuck somehow.
      - gbear605 5y ago
        Lots of modern English words arose from misspellings (and mishearings) - if one becomes popular, it becomes an English word. That’s how languages evolve, otherwise we’d still be speaking Proto-Indo-European.
someguydave 5y ago
This whole affair makes the freenode “volunteer” staff sound like ungovernable children. (They are paid in status so they are not really volunteers)
- fullstop 5y ago
  > (They are paid in status so they are not really volunteers) Citation Needed. Everything that I have read has stated that they are not paid, with the exception of a reimbursement for the cost of procuring a U2F key.
- danaris 5y ago
  ....Wow; that's quite a take on the definition of "volunteer."
- mlatu 5y ago
  Oh ic... I saw an ad for a flat the other day, they were asking for status, I didn't get it then but now it makes sense.
- kgwxd 5y ago
  They're self-governing, and running a very useful service, and would like to stay that way. When someone walks in a room and declares they're now in control, without any right to do so, you don't just sit back and accept it, that's what children do.
- g_sch 5y ago
  Great point, I'll ask my landlord if I can pay my rent in status this month.
  - andyana 5y ago
    I know you're joking, but I'd like to see a video of you asking, and of your landlords reaction, for humor :).
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  I think that's an interesting point (about status, at least), even if you're getting mocked for it. I can see the argument that the staff aren't purely charitable volunteers, they are getting a return on their effort. Or they wouldn't do it.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> I don't understand what Andrew's big sin is Lee founded Private Internet Access [1]. They had a history of being sketchy [2] and inexplicably hired Mark Karpeles. I don’t have a connection to Freenode. But I can recognise a bad actor when I see one. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur) [2] https://telegra.ph/Private-Internet-Access-VPN-acquired-by-malware-business-founded-by-former-Israeli-spies-12-01 https://telegra.ph/Private-Internet-Access-VPN-acquired-by-m...
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  He sold pia to an adware company and didn't bother to inform customers.
tootie 5y ago
They seem to be attributing a lot malice to his actions that isn't evident. This is the most low stakes power play I've seen play out. Just talk to the guy directly instead of stomping off.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Why are you assuming no private communication happened? They aren't paid anything so setting up a new service with a domain not controlled by the disagreeable party seems to be the rational choice. What are they losing exactly?
  - Macha 5y ago
    Also, there has been plenty of private communication. We know because much of it has leaked.
- rcxdude 5y ago
  Nothing about the reasons behind his actions are evident, despite repeated questioning. The answers he gives don't add up (a lot of vague mumbling about improving freenode by making it distributed, which seems completely counter to his actual actions).
  - Karunamon 5y ago
    Making it distributed? Isn't that any IRC network with 2 or more servers by definition?
    - rcxdude 5y ago
      Indeed, this is one of the ways in which what he says doesn't make much sense.
      - wowaname 5y ago
        Lee expresses interest in decentralised/distributed alternatives to DNS so it does make sense. What doesn't make sense is the fact that I'm seeing a more-homogeneous set of ircops on multiple networks these days.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

that_guy_iain 5y ago

Bribes of oper and money? Aka offering someone a job as a staff member? Am I understanding that correctly?

q3k 5y ago
Offering a job position can be bribery. It's not a stretch to interpret that particular chat log as exactly that.
- that_guy_iain 5y ago
  Bribery for what? What would they be getting other than someone to do staffer work for them?
  - q3k 5y ago
    Influence over the community's perception that freenode is still freenode, and that things are stable, because some staff is still on their side, and because an influential project (Alpine) stayed with freenode.
inshadows 5y ago
Whoa! There are now money in IRC?
- that_guy_iain 5y ago
  The ex-Freenode staff seem to be saying there is. I am also confused.
- blibble 5y ago
  if he's truthful in saying he funded freenode with more than a million dollars... seems like it I wonder where that money went, especially considering the hosting for all the IRC servers is donated by its sponsors (ISPs)
speeder 5y ago
I read the log. That Shane person, literally told Ariadne she would have power to ban whoever she wants, screw with people she doesn't like, punish her enemies... She replied she have no enemies, he tried to point out that is still a good power to have and whatnot. She then explained to him that banning someone from Freenode can damage that person career if they are involved in FOSS community, considering how many important projects communicate only there and all. Later in the conversaion I saw something I interpreted as a kind-of threat too, when in a passing remark Shane mentioned her sexual fetishes. Then he implied that certain Linux distros have advantages in Freenode, and Alpine could have it too... I think you get the point, it is not just a job offer, the way he was writing looked like more someone trying to imitate characters in the Godfather movie.

enriquto 5y ago

So freenode has suffered a hostile take over by the korean imperial family. No shit! On vit une époque formidable.

rsynnott 5y ago
Well, no, not the Korean imperial family. There is, obviously, no Korean imperial family anymore. Lee is a pretender.
- enriquto 5y ago
  all monarchs are illegitimate pretenders if you think about it.
  - kwk1 5y ago
    The word pretender ("to reach/stretch out") in this context simply means a claimant for a position that is occupied or gone. It has nothing to do with the modern connotation of someone making something up.

nickysielicki 5y ago

I was a PIA customer precisely because I knew they donated to freenode (among other things; ie: financial sponsorship for WireGuard). Doesn’t seem to me like staff are fully aware of what they’re destroying and how there will never be another real dominant IRC network. Freenode was it. Slack and discord have killed IRC for a lot of things already, and this is now the final nail in the coffin. “Libra”-whatever will not last long, and neither will freenode without staff. Is all of this worth it? Did he really do anything that bad? Hasn’t a few years of financial donation to various open source projects bought any good will? Isn’t there a reasonable explanation for trying to put some of these things in LLCs and formal organizations, etc.? Someone has to own the domain, right? It doesn’t sound to me like he was asking for a lot of effort. Anyway, too late to cry about it, it’s done and over with now. RIP to IRC. I guess I’ll see you guys on Discord! I love the modern internet!!!

mlatu 5y ago
> Someone has to own the domain, right? Why not an association then? Why must it always be someONE who owns something? Communal property is the way forwards, not setting up fences.
- jlokier 5y ago
  It is already owned by an association, a non-profit called Freenode Limited.
  - jlokier 5y ago
    Nice downvote for looking up a simple legal fact, to address the misleading impression from the GP that an individual person holds the domain. Perhaps this will be downvoted as well because the childishness is strong on this issue, but for the benefit of anyone who cares, the parent comment is at least technically correct (the best kind of correct). The domain at the centre of this controversy is owned by an incorporated non-profit association registered as a company limited by guarantee, not by a "someone".
RIMR 5y ago

milliams 5y ago

> "Let’s [sic] take IRC further" Why the "sic"? Is there something wrong with contracting "Let us" in this way?

hesk 5y ago
I read that to mean that there is not "us" only "me".
IshKebab 5y ago
Nope. [sic] is definitely wrong there. Looks like it has been fixed though.
- mjthompson 5y ago
  [sic] [sic] :)

fouc 5y ago

> When freenode announced that it was joining with Private Internet Access in 2017, the domain name, as well as unspecified other “assets”, were sold to one Andrew Lee via a holding company. Staff were uncertain but assured that PIA was to have no operational influence. > In early 2021, that changed. New advertising was pushed onto the freenode website without warning. The head of staff at the time ultimately resigned rather than explain. In the time since, there have been changes to network operations for which we have received no explanation. > Control of freenode infrastructure will soon be transferred to Freenode Limited and its agents. Seems like Andrew Lee is maneuvering to take control of the freenode irc network infrastructure. I would've assumed that the freenode irc network is comprised of volunteer servers.

techrat 5y ago
> I would've assumed that the freenode irc network is comprised of volunteer servers. It is. That makes the whole situation that much more suspect, why someone like Lee should desire to take over a network not knowing that it consists of sponsor servers. Seeing what happened with Snoonet (a desolate wasteland), I fully expect to happen to Freenode as well. Shame. All for one man's ego.
- Operyl 5y ago
  Snoonet was a desolate wasteland long before the PIA “merger.” Since then, Discord has largely eaten up subreddits for communication platform of choice.
sp332 5y ago
It is, but the legal challenge would be expensive according to https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461 https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461

aliljet 5y ago

So, is this the first bifurcation? OFTC or Libera. Yesterday, I thought it was just Libera.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago
OFTC has existed a long time, it's an option for projects that want to presumably just step out of this present drama entirely. Libera is the new Freenode, in terms of management staff and likely rules and policy.

kemonocode 5y ago

I hope this entire ordeal makes it all clear that when a company snatches up a community project, it'll be very likely with the intention to monetize it down the road, and I really think the changes being vaguely alluded to were oriented towards that.

jpswade 5y ago

Do I miss IRC drama? No I don’t think so.

josteink 5y ago

Reposting my comment from a earlier thread. This story is just so unclear and leaves me full of questions. It’s a complete mess, despite the numerous semi-official statements trying to clear things up. Things I’m wondering about: - why was freenode being sold in the first place? - for what was it sold? For money? And who was paid for the sale? - Did whatever freenode was sold for go back to support the IRC-network? Or did someone weasel it away for themselves? - why would anyone buy and IRC network? What did they expect to gain by owning the network? - Why was a volunteer-run IRC network even registered as a business which could be sold? Can anyone please help me understand?

progval 5y ago
> - why was freenode being sold in the first place? > - for what was it sold? For money? And who was paid for the sale? > - Why was a volunteer-run IRC network even registered as a business which could be sold? It was to organize and sponsor a live conference ("Freenode #live"). The contract is not public, and not even (now former) freenode staff knows the terms. See the first two paragraphs here: https://gist.github.com/edk0/478fb4351bc3ba458288d6878032669d https://gist.github.com/edk0/478fb4351bc3ba458288d6878032669... > - Did whatever freenode was sold for go back to support the IRC-network? Or did someone weasel it away for themselves? It was mainly to support the conference, so this was a success. It's unknown if any other money was exchange. > - why would anyone buy and IRC network? What did they expect to gain by owning the network? There is a tentative explanation in the OP, but we may never know the actual reasons unless we are Andrew Lee himself.

cookguyruffles 5y ago

Speaking as an IRC lifer, every article I read about this fails to actually make any kind of cohesive point about what's going on and why it is bad. Explain like I'm 5 please? Who controlled nickserv/chanserv before this Andrew fellow? It seems there is some leap to "omfg he's taking control of services!" without mention of who is /losing/ control. It seems perhaps a large chunk of story is missing here. Meanwhile I'll probably continue using Freenode until it starts serving Viagra ads during connection or something similarly tangibly evil. Right now I just see a bunch of dumb IRC drama. It's a chat network, come on.

ok123456 5y ago
There is no real problem. The freenode "staffers" just don't like the fact that someone was able to win the irc game (i.e., gaining more power) without following their invented arbitrary bureaucracy and dedicating their life to idling in the right set of channels. This whole thing is really off topic and should be taken to ##wrongplanet .
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Every organization in which the people have real autonomy and power is literally an invented arbitrary bureaucracy. You just invented a really long way to describe civilization. People don't like it when money trumps all other factors in a concern that perceptively wasn't for sale and threats and dishonesty don't help either. It appears that nearly everyone involved believes there is a problem including Lee who now needs new paid staff to run what is likely a dwindling community. It sounds like you have an ax to grind personally.
  - ok123456 5y ago
    Nah. I've seen much larger IRC networks run with a fraction of the officiousness and ornery behavior from freenode "staffers". It's not a general problem with civilization needing "law and order" or whatever.
    - 5y ago

jefurii 5y ago

Seems like this may have been avoided if Freenode had just registered as an actual nonprofit that could have held/owned the domain and infrastructure.

jlokier 5y ago
Ironically, that is in fact what happened. It's called Freenode Limited, and it's a registered nonprofit which holds the domain. The trouble is the people who have left are unhappy with how it was done.

imode 5y ago

I've been on Freenode since 2006. I've been known as 'imode' for a couple of years now. I called out Lee, and he took my nickname away. There are already abuses of power going on, and he has no legal authority over any of the infrastructure. imode: Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable

wowaname 5y ago
- NickServ (NickServ@services.): Information on imode (account imode): - NickServ (NickServ@services.): Registered : Oct 05 03:45:24 2016 (4y 32w 6d ago) - NickServ (NickServ@services.): Last seen : (about 0 weeks ago) - NickServ (NickServ@services.): Flags : HideMail, Private - NickServ (NickServ@services.): imode has enabled nick protection - NickServ (NickServ@services.): *** End of Info *** - You are now known as imode You're still in services DB and I'm able to use your nick. The "temporarily unavailable" error is literally that; your nick was probably recently protected by services, in which case you'd have to `/ns release` for it back.

0xbadcafebee 5y ago

This is like reading about the political intrigue of an ant colony. (jk ant colonies are fascinating)

Sunspark 5y ago

Presenting an alternative user perspective here, I would go on freenode, but only for sports channels (really, and how that happened is because on reddit before they started promoting discord, there was a window where IRC was advertised for sports chat, usually during game nights). Freenode wasn't only for technology channels, though they were absolutely the majority. My experience with freenode has been a positive one, the sports channels had the same crowd of regulars and there were no real issues. Freenode was very nice, especially compared to the shower that EFNet was in the 90s and I am sorry to see that the freenode network is having troubles now. IRC is a great technology, it's too difficult for the average user to understand, and this is not necessarily a bad thing.