7 ms·

Yes: "the fact that Ampere continues to use the Arm architecture is a further encouragement and win for the Arm ecosystem". Personal take: it would be the end

Yes: "the fact that Ampere continues to use the Arm architecture is a further encouragement and win for the Arm ecosystem". Personal take: it would be the end of them if they weren't.

throwaway4good 5y ago
So much for RISC-V then.
- liaukovv 5y ago
  Maybe risc-v will take current place of arm with arm taking over x86's segment of the market? Risc-v being open would be a real boon for low cost embedded chips
- mhh__ 5y ago
  The only companies I can think of that could really make it would probably be Apple (because they have an iron grip over that platform) or Intel (because they actually have good software unlike almost all of their competitors, which could make the migration easier) - Apple are happy with ARM and Intel are probably terrified after what happened with Itanium. Any move to RISC-V will probably either happen in China or incrementally.
  - e3bc54b2 5y ago
    I once read on HN that Apple gets ARM ISA and designs for free by virtue of being a founder. So the closed proprietary nature isn't enough for them to move to RISC V. I'm not sure that's true though..
    - philistine 5y ago
      They probably have a very generous, very old contract by virtue of being the first third-party to use ARM in a device. But we won't know the specifics unless there's a court case that touches that relationship. With the way Apple operates, we have ten years before we can reasonably assume that they would change their architecture. Is RISC-V really going to be worth all the headaches of a transition in ten years?
      - mpweiher 5y ago
        As previous posters have pointed out, Apple is not a third party. "The company was founded in November 1990 as Advanced RISC Machines Ltd and structured as a joint venture between Acorn Computers, Apple Computer (now Apple Inc.) and VLSI Technology." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_Ltd.#Founding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_Ltd.#Founding More details about ARM licensing: "Finally at the top of the pyramid is an ARM architecture license. Marvell, Apple and Qualcomm are some examples of the 15 companies that have this license." https://www.anandtech.com/show/7112/the-arm-diaries-part-1-how-arms-business-model-works/3 https://www.anandtech.com/show/7112/the-arm-diaries-part-1-h...
    - ksec 5y ago
      >I once read on HN that Apple gets ARM ISA and designs for free by virtue of being a founder. I can bet $100 on it being wrong. Especially the ARMv8 ( and v9 )
  - moosebear847 5y ago
    Why is it that treating collective nouns (e.g. Apple) as plural has a tendency to trigger an irrational negative emotional response for me? What's even weirder is that I used to think that made more sense and used it too, until convention in American society changed my thinking to flip to singular.
    - mumblemumble 5y ago
      The English-language grammar concerning pronouns and subject-verb agreement is something that shows a lot of regional variation. In the variety I grew up speaking, whether you use the singular or plural depends on both the part of speech of the word you're inflecting, and the specific collective noun you're trying to agree with. It's a complicated enough set of conventions that I wouldn't necessarily expect anyone who didn't grow up in the same region as me to be able to follow them precisely. Long story short, it's probably not terribly utilitarian to have strong opinions about the subject when participating in an international forum such as this one.
      - moosebear847 5y ago
        Valid point, I will try practicing it with the aim of accepting both variations.
- Tuna-Fish 5y ago
  RISC-V is amazing as what it is, but it isn't a competitor for high-end performance. It's simply not designed for that.
  - einpoklum 5y ago
    Can you link to an explanation of why that is?
  - whazor 5y ago
    RISC-V is ideal to build around a custom ASIC and could be used for high-end performance stuff, just very specific performance stuff.
  - s-macke 5y ago
    RISC-V is first and foremost an instruction set architecture. Like all architectures it has a few weaknesses. But if you spend enough money, there is no reason for RISC-V not to be a competitor in the high-end performance segment.
  - solarkraft 5y ago
    Yet? I know virtually nothing about the internals, but that‘s also what people said about ARM.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    If X86 still competes I see no reason why RISC-V can't also
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      RISC-V doesn't have 40 years of ecosystem.
      - mhh__ 5y ago
        > but it isn't a competitor for high-end performance. It's simply not designed for that.
- p_l 5y ago
  Alibaba is working hard on high-end RISC-V cpus. Generally, for RISC-V, look to China it seems?
- Pet_Ant 5y ago
  Could a chip have two ISAs? If instruction decoding is as minimal as Intel makes it out to be, then it should be able to have two ISAs translating to the same microarchitecture, non?
  - throwaway4good 5y ago
    Sure. Probably not always practical. But why not? You could also do just in time translation at the os level.
  - cesarb 5y ago
    The ISA affects more than just the instruction decoder. For instance, x86 has partial register writes and TSO memory ordering; RISC-V does not have a condition code register, and has some special rules for the division operation; and so on. However, RISC-V is so minimal that it might be possible to add it as a second ISA to a chip without much effort. On the other hand, it's so minimal that a JIT translator from RISC-V to the native ISA can be a valid alternative (see for instance https://carrv.github.io/2017/papers/clark-rv8-carrv2017.pdf https://carrv.github.io/2017/papers/clark-rv8-carrv2017.pdf).
  - toast0 5y ago
    Definitely. Some ARM processors can switch between ARM and Thumb mode for example, and I think I've seen it on different types as well, but not 100% on details; IIRC things like chips that were compatible with 6502 or similar, but had a native mode with more capabilities and a different instruction set. Of course, it helps if the ISAs are at least broadly similar in terms of register space and available operations and memory ordering specifications. And the performance is in the details.
- TheMagicHorsey 5y ago
  Geopolitics has ensured that RISC-V will be relevant for the foreseeable future. China, Russia, Iran ... and any other country that doesn't want to be locked out of computing by an American embargo, are doubling down on RISCV development. In Russia's case its mostly military hardware applications. In Iran's case its just software. But in China's case its heavily funding projects to bring commercial products to market to replace US-controlled IP on everything from mobile phones to desktop workstations. It will take ten years for these projects to see fruition, but the Chinese state is pouring state-actor level funds into the project through multiple different private and public entities. It's good news for open source hardware development. But bad news for USA and for people with security concerns. I don't know how comfortable I'd be with a Chinese designed CPU, Chinese compilers, and a Chinese kernel ... even if they were all open source.
  - lucian1900 5y ago
    How comfortable do you think the rest of us are with US-designed CPUs and software? I’ll take the country that hasn’t invaded and is still occupying much of the world, I think.
    - TheMagicHorsey 5y ago
      It's a personal choice ... but if you study Chinese politics I think you'll find their lack of aggression isn't an orientation, its a historical lack of capability ... which is now changing. The US Empire is corrupt, but its processes of decision making and power are relatively transparent (open elections, senate trials, etc.). The Chinese system is entirely opaque. In a sense, all citizens in China are ultimately completely vulnerable to the whims of the state ... there is no recourse for arbitrary detention, seizure of property, etc. This is a model China seeks to export in the long run ... either directly, or through affiliates. America sucks ... but as people often say about Democracy, its the worst system of governance except all the rest.
      - lucian1900 5y ago
        The US isn’t democratic. Every human on earth is at the whims of US state power. There is no recourse for arbitrary detention (like Guantanamo or the border concentration camps), assassinations, invasions, coups, etc. I’ve studied Chinese politics and have reached the opposite conclusion to you.
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  RISC-V's play won't be in the desktop or server market but in the absolutely huge embedded devices market. A place where the licensing cost on an ARM core can actually contribute significantly to the BOM. Or where having the ability to roll ones own ISA extensions can have a significant win. Or where the politics of licensing a core from a corporation HQ'd in a geopolitical rival means something.
  - snvzz 5y ago
    That's where success is definitely coming first. But there's no reason to think it won't touch other markets.

Yes: "the fact that Ampere continues to use the Arm architecture is a further encouragement and win for the Arm ecosystem". Personal take: it would be the end of them if they weren't.

throwaway4good 5y ago

So much for RISC-V then.

liaukovv 5y ago
Maybe risc-v will take current place of arm with arm taking over x86's segment of the market? Risc-v being open would be a real boon for low cost embedded chips
mhh__ 5y ago
The only companies I can think of that could really make it would probably be Apple (because they have an iron grip over that platform) or Intel (because they actually have good software unlike almost all of their competitors, which could make the migration easier) - Apple are happy with ARM and Intel are probably terrified after what happened with Itanium. Any move to RISC-V will probably either happen in China or incrementally.
- e3bc54b2 5y ago
  I once read on HN that Apple gets ARM ISA and designs for free by virtue of being a founder. So the closed proprietary nature isn't enough for them to move to RISC V. I'm not sure that's true though..
  - philistine 5y ago
    They probably have a very generous, very old contract by virtue of being the first third-party to use ARM in a device. But we won't know the specifics unless there's a court case that touches that relationship. With the way Apple operates, we have ten years before we can reasonably assume that they would change their architecture. Is RISC-V really going to be worth all the headaches of a transition in ten years?
    - mpweiher 5y ago
      As previous posters have pointed out, Apple is not a third party. "The company was founded in November 1990 as Advanced RISC Machines Ltd and structured as a joint venture between Acorn Computers, Apple Computer (now Apple Inc.) and VLSI Technology." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_Ltd.#Founding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_Ltd.#Founding More details about ARM licensing: "Finally at the top of the pyramid is an ARM architecture license. Marvell, Apple and Qualcomm are some examples of the 15 companies that have this license." https://www.anandtech.com/show/7112/the-arm-diaries-part-1-how-arms-business-model-works/3 https://www.anandtech.com/show/7112/the-arm-diaries-part-1-h...
  - ksec 5y ago
    >I once read on HN that Apple gets ARM ISA and designs for free by virtue of being a founder. I can bet $100 on it being wrong. Especially the ARMv8 ( and v9 )
- moosebear847 5y ago
  Why is it that treating collective nouns (e.g. Apple) as plural has a tendency to trigger an irrational negative emotional response for me? What's even weirder is that I used to think that made more sense and used it too, until convention in American society changed my thinking to flip to singular.
  - mumblemumble 5y ago
    The English-language grammar concerning pronouns and subject-verb agreement is something that shows a lot of regional variation. In the variety I grew up speaking, whether you use the singular or plural depends on both the part of speech of the word you're inflecting, and the specific collective noun you're trying to agree with. It's a complicated enough set of conventions that I wouldn't necessarily expect anyone who didn't grow up in the same region as me to be able to follow them precisely. Long story short, it's probably not terribly utilitarian to have strong opinions about the subject when participating in an international forum such as this one.
    - moosebear847 5y ago
      Valid point, I will try practicing it with the aim of accepting both variations.
Tuna-Fish 5y ago
RISC-V is amazing as what it is, but it isn't a competitor for high-end performance. It's simply not designed for that.
- einpoklum 5y ago
  Can you link to an explanation of why that is?
- whazor 5y ago
  RISC-V is ideal to build around a custom ASIC and could be used for high-end performance stuff, just very specific performance stuff.
- s-macke 5y ago
  RISC-V is first and foremost an instruction set architecture. Like all architectures it has a few weaknesses. But if you spend enough money, there is no reason for RISC-V not to be a competitor in the high-end performance segment.
- solarkraft 5y ago
  Yet? I know virtually nothing about the internals, but that‘s also what people said about ARM.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  If X86 still competes I see no reason why RISC-V can't also
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    RISC-V doesn't have 40 years of ecosystem.
    - mhh__ 5y ago
      > but it isn't a competitor for high-end performance. It's simply not designed for that.
p_l 5y ago
Alibaba is working hard on high-end RISC-V cpus. Generally, for RISC-V, look to China it seems?
Pet_Ant 5y ago
Could a chip have two ISAs? If instruction decoding is as minimal as Intel makes it out to be, then it should be able to have two ISAs translating to the same microarchitecture, non?
- throwaway4good 5y ago
  Sure. Probably not always practical. But why not? You could also do just in time translation at the os level.
- cesarb 5y ago
  The ISA affects more than just the instruction decoder. For instance, x86 has partial register writes and TSO memory ordering; RISC-V does not have a condition code register, and has some special rules for the division operation; and so on. However, RISC-V is so minimal that it might be possible to add it as a second ISA to a chip without much effort. On the other hand, it's so minimal that a JIT translator from RISC-V to the native ISA can be a valid alternative (see for instance https://carrv.github.io/2017/papers/clark-rv8-carrv2017.pdf https://carrv.github.io/2017/papers/clark-rv8-carrv2017.pdf).
- toast0 5y ago
  Definitely. Some ARM processors can switch between ARM and Thumb mode for example, and I think I've seen it on different types as well, but not 100% on details; IIRC things like chips that were compatible with 6502 or similar, but had a native mode with more capabilities and a different instruction set. Of course, it helps if the ISAs are at least broadly similar in terms of register space and available operations and memory ordering specifications. And the performance is in the details.
TheMagicHorsey 5y ago
Geopolitics has ensured that RISC-V will be relevant for the foreseeable future. China, Russia, Iran ... and any other country that doesn't want to be locked out of computing by an American embargo, are doubling down on RISCV development. In Russia's case its mostly military hardware applications. In Iran's case its just software. But in China's case its heavily funding projects to bring commercial products to market to replace US-controlled IP on everything from mobile phones to desktop workstations. It will take ten years for these projects to see fruition, but the Chinese state is pouring state-actor level funds into the project through multiple different private and public entities. It's good news for open source hardware development. But bad news for USA and for people with security concerns. I don't know how comfortable I'd be with a Chinese designed CPU, Chinese compilers, and a Chinese kernel ... even if they were all open source.
- lucian1900 5y ago
  How comfortable do you think the rest of us are with US-designed CPUs and software? I’ll take the country that hasn’t invaded and is still occupying much of the world, I think.
  - TheMagicHorsey 5y ago
    It's a personal choice ... but if you study Chinese politics I think you'll find their lack of aggression isn't an orientation, its a historical lack of capability ... which is now changing. The US Empire is corrupt, but its processes of decision making and power are relatively transparent (open elections, senate trials, etc.). The Chinese system is entirely opaque. In a sense, all citizens in China are ultimately completely vulnerable to the whims of the state ... there is no recourse for arbitrary detention, seizure of property, etc. This is a model China seeks to export in the long run ... either directly, or through affiliates. America sucks ... but as people often say about Democracy, its the worst system of governance except all the rest.
    - lucian1900 5y ago
      The US isn’t democratic. Every human on earth is at the whims of US state power. There is no recourse for arbitrary detention (like Guantanamo or the border concentration camps), assassinations, invasions, coups, etc. I’ve studied Chinese politics and have reached the opposite conclusion to you.
cmrdporcupine 5y ago
RISC-V's play won't be in the desktop or server market but in the absolutely huge embedded devices market. A place where the licensing cost on an ARM core can actually contribute significantly to the BOM. Or where having the ability to roll ones own ISA extensions can have a significant win. Or where the politics of licensing a core from a corporation HQ'd in a geopolitical rival means something.
- snvzz 5y ago
  That's where success is definitely coming first. But there's no reason to think it won't touch other markets.