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Sounds so great, what can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take? BTC seems a lot more accessible than the great and amazing US or

Sounds so great, what can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take? BTC seems a lot more accessible than the great and amazing US or EU banks, who have nearly failed and had to be bailed out barely a decade ago. Doesn't inspire confidence, tbh.

camgunz 5y ago
I think it'd be more productive if you engaged with the substance of what I wrote, rather than engaging in whataboutism with USD/Euro/etc. I'll try and do that here with what you wrote. > What can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take? A couple of things about this: - You can get Dollars/Euros/GBP/RMB. - Crypto cannot solve the "so you're born in an oppressive or poorly-run state" problem. You've gotta trade the currency you have for crypto, and if that currency isn't good, crypto doesn't help you at all. - There's really no examples of crypto helping people in oppressive or poorly-run states (Venezuela still has horrendous problems, for example). - The transaction fees are bad enough in USD, but valued in (say) Bolivars they're prohibitive. - In particular, Bitcoin is super bad for the planet, and people in oppressive or poorly run states are disproportionately susceptible to ecological disasters and climate change. > BTC seems a lot more accessible than the great and amazing US or EU banks, who have nearly failed and had to be bailed out barely a decade ago. Doesn't inspire confidence, tbh. I think you don't mean "accessible", but rather you're saying because banks need bailouts that fiat currency is unworkable? My counterpoint here is mostly what I wrote in my previous post; fiat is superior to crypto in every way, unless you're a criminal. Furthermore, cryptocurrency systems are vulnerable to a whole class of problems central banking isn't, i.e. someone lost the keys, Sybil attacks, developers making changes that destroy your stake/economy. There is no recourse for this. Are heads of state supposed to join a Discord channel or w/e and lobby crypto devs?
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  Sadly, you are absolutely uninformed. 1. no, you cant get FX. capital controls. 2. USDC stablecoin actually has explicit sanction exemptions from US Govt to help people in Venezuela. They aren't easy to get at all, but I guess according to USDC does absolutely nothing in Venezuela, so it must've been a waste of effort. 3. transaction fees are measured in milli-cents on Lightning Network. They are also instant. Still Bitcoin, with the same security budget. 4. Why is using renewables super bad for the planet? Either renewables can power the planet and our industries - or they just don't work. Make up your mind. If you think proof of work is waste and you need to lobby devs - you have literally everything upside down. very unfortunately it's a common situation on this board. a. Proof of Work exists to remove any subjectivity from consensus. Longest valid chain with most work, period. Subjectivity = politics, and everything that comes with it. b. devs do not have anywhere as much control as you think, and the ecosystem can trivially eject malicious devs. happened a number of times. The entire point of Bitcoin is that it is objective and transparent. As for "criminal" - people commit on average 3 felonies per day: https://ips-dc.org/three-felonies-day/ https://ips-dc.org/three-felonies-day/ Everyone is a criminal. Especially Turks, Venezuelans and Nigerians seeking to escape their broken systems and banks. Must be some savvy criminals - recording their crimes on a globally replicated open ledger, visible to the entire world.
  - camgunz 5y ago
    > 1. no, you cant get FX. capital controls. I can't find where this is true. There are some restrictions about denominating some contracts, etc. in FX, but nothing about investing in foreign currencies. And it looks like many Turks are in fact doing this [1]. On the other hand, after a non-zero level of crypto hype [2], a lot of Turks invested in crypto only to fall prey to some bonkers scams [3]. I know the typical rejoinder is "there are fiat scams too", but particularly in failing/failed states, the regulatory infrastructure is completely incapable of policing this stuff, making it all the more likely. The fact is it's easier to run these scams using crypto than fiat, because of the lack of international banking controls and KYC. > 2. USDC stablecoin actually has explicit sanction exemptions from US Govt to help people in Venezuela. They aren't easy to get at all, but I guess according to USDC does absolutely nothing in Venezuela, so it must've been a waste of effort. The argument crypto advocates make is that if you're in an failing/failed state, you can just switch to BTC. This clearly hasn't happened. The US is using a blockchain and VPNs to get aid to Venezuelans. That's (super) cool, but it's not at all what crypto advocates were talking about. It's also worth saying Venezuela is still in dire straits, despite all this. So while it's not a wasted effort, it certainly isn't a cure-all (again, what crypto advocates have argued). > 3. transaction fees are measured in milli-cents on Lightning Network. They are also instant. Still Bitcoin, with the same security budget. Lightning has all kinds of problems, and is probably unworkable: - It currently only holds $70m, despite being available for years. - It doesn't solve the problem of very small transactions across multiple parties (think gas stations, retail, vending machines, tolls, monthly subscriptions, etc. etc. etc.) - It's fundamentally a desync from the blockchain, with all the potential for fraud that implies. - The protocol requires constant internet connectivity; if you disconnect you risk losing your funds in the desynced transaction (again, bad for developing nations) > 4. Why is using renewables super bad for the planet. Crypto advocates seem to have a lot of assumptions about the use of renewable energy for mining, but the best study that wasn't conducted by people heavily invested (literally and figuratively) in crypto shows a pretty mixed bag, and indicates that a lot of the reason for the use of renewables is that it can't be used for anything else (e.g. it's too far away and transmission costs are too high) [4]. In the Xinjiang region in China, for example, it's all coal. There's also a lot of externalities when it comes to mining. Hydropower has a significant environmental impact. ASICs evolve and the old ones become e-waste. > Either renewables can power the planet and our industries - or they just don't work. Make up your mind. They can power the planet and our industries, as long as we're wise about their use. Using them for crypto mining is an unwise use, akin to leaving the A/C on and all your windows open. > Proof of Work exists to remove any subjectivity from consensus. Longest valid chain with most work, period. Subjectivity = politics, and everything that comes with it. You can't seriously say crypto governance is free of politics. Look at the block size debate, or all the weirdness around ETH2. > devs do not have anywhere as much control as you think, and the ecosystem can trivially eject malicious devs. happened a number of times. ETH devs keep pushing ETH2 into the future, putting off the gains of people who bought into PoS and shoring up the positions of people who invested in big PoW mining rigs. That's politics, with devs at the heart of it. I can't think of a bigger issue in ETH, now or ever. > Everyone is a criminal. First of all the book that "article" references is pretty cranky. That said, it's true that it's very easy to incidentally commit crimes. However, there's plainly a difference between incidental criminal acts, and trafficking drugs or people. Don't equivocate between these two things. [1]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-15/turks-are-yield-hunting-as-lira-s-woes-deepen-love-for-dollars https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-15/turks-are... [2]: https://www.coindesk.com/turkey-doesnt-regulate-crypto-its-thriving https://www.coindesk.com/turkey-doesnt-regulate-crypto-its-t... [3]: https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/5/5/for-the-ruined-turkeys-crypto-crackdown-comes-too-late https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/5/5/for-the-ruined-tu... [4]: https://cdn.crowdfundinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2018-ccaf-2nd-global-cryptoasset-benchmarking-study.pdf#page=84 https://cdn.crowdfundinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/...

camgunz 5y ago

I think it'd be more productive if you engaged with the substance of what I wrote, rather than engaging in whataboutism with USD/Euro/etc. I'll try and do that here with what you wrote. > What can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take? A couple of things about this: - You can get Dollars/Euros/GBP/RMB. - Crypto cannot solve the "so you're born in an oppressive or poorly-run state" problem. You've gotta trade the currency you have for crypto, and if that currency isn't good, crypto doesn't help you at all. - There's really no examples of crypto helping people in oppressive or poorly-run states (Venezuela still has horrendous problems, for example). - The transaction fees are bad enough in USD, but valued in (say) Bolivars they're prohibitive. - In particular, Bitcoin is super bad for the planet, and people in oppressive or poorly run states are disproportionately susceptible to ecological disasters and climate change. > BTC seems a lot more accessible than the great and amazing US or EU banks, who have nearly failed and had to be bailed out barely a decade ago. Doesn't inspire confidence, tbh. I think you don't mean "accessible", but rather you're saying because banks need bailouts that fiat currency is unworkable? My counterpoint here is mostly what I wrote in my previous post; fiat is superior to crypto in every way, unless you're a criminal. Furthermore, cryptocurrency systems are vulnerable to a whole class of problems central banking isn't, i.e. someone lost the keys, Sybil attacks, developers making changes that destroy your stake/economy. There is no recourse for this. Are heads of state supposed to join a Discord channel or w/e and lobby crypto devs?

inter_netuser 5y ago
Sadly, you are absolutely uninformed. 1. no, you cant get FX. capital controls. 2. USDC stablecoin actually has explicit sanction exemptions from US Govt to help people in Venezuela. They aren't easy to get at all, but I guess according to USDC does absolutely nothing in Venezuela, so it must've been a waste of effort. 3. transaction fees are measured in milli-cents on Lightning Network. They are also instant. Still Bitcoin, with the same security budget. 4. Why is using renewables super bad for the planet? Either renewables can power the planet and our industries - or they just don't work. Make up your mind. If you think proof of work is waste and you need to lobby devs - you have literally everything upside down. very unfortunately it's a common situation on this board. a. Proof of Work exists to remove any subjectivity from consensus. Longest valid chain with most work, period. Subjectivity = politics, and everything that comes with it. b. devs do not have anywhere as much control as you think, and the ecosystem can trivially eject malicious devs. happened a number of times. The entire point of Bitcoin is that it is objective and transparent. As for "criminal" - people commit on average 3 felonies per day: https://ips-dc.org/three-felonies-day/ https://ips-dc.org/three-felonies-day/ Everyone is a criminal. Especially Turks, Venezuelans and Nigerians seeking to escape their broken systems and banks. Must be some savvy criminals - recording their crimes on a globally replicated open ledger, visible to the entire world.
- camgunz 5y ago
  > 1. no, you cant get FX. capital controls. I can't find where this is true. There are some restrictions about denominating some contracts, etc. in FX, but nothing about investing in foreign currencies. And it looks like many Turks are in fact doing this [1]. On the other hand, after a non-zero level of crypto hype [2], a lot of Turks invested in crypto only to fall prey to some bonkers scams [3]. I know the typical rejoinder is "there are fiat scams too", but particularly in failing/failed states, the regulatory infrastructure is completely incapable of policing this stuff, making it all the more likely. The fact is it's easier to run these scams using crypto than fiat, because of the lack of international banking controls and KYC. > 2. USDC stablecoin actually has explicit sanction exemptions from US Govt to help people in Venezuela. They aren't easy to get at all, but I guess according to USDC does absolutely nothing in Venezuela, so it must've been a waste of effort. The argument crypto advocates make is that if you're in an failing/failed state, you can just switch to BTC. This clearly hasn't happened. The US is using a blockchain and VPNs to get aid to Venezuelans. That's (super) cool, but it's not at all what crypto advocates were talking about. It's also worth saying Venezuela is still in dire straits, despite all this. So while it's not a wasted effort, it certainly isn't a cure-all (again, what crypto advocates have argued). > 3. transaction fees are measured in milli-cents on Lightning Network. They are also instant. Still Bitcoin, with the same security budget. Lightning has all kinds of problems, and is probably unworkable: - It currently only holds $70m, despite being available for years. - It doesn't solve the problem of very small transactions across multiple parties (think gas stations, retail, vending machines, tolls, monthly subscriptions, etc. etc. etc.) - It's fundamentally a desync from the blockchain, with all the potential for fraud that implies. - The protocol requires constant internet connectivity; if you disconnect you risk losing your funds in the desynced transaction (again, bad for developing nations) > 4. Why is using renewables super bad for the planet. Crypto advocates seem to have a lot of assumptions about the use of renewable energy for mining, but the best study that wasn't conducted by people heavily invested (literally and figuratively) in crypto shows a pretty mixed bag, and indicates that a lot of the reason for the use of renewables is that it can't be used for anything else (e.g. it's too far away and transmission costs are too high) [4]. In the Xinjiang region in China, for example, it's all coal. There's also a lot of externalities when it comes to mining. Hydropower has a significant environmental impact. ASICs evolve and the old ones become e-waste. > Either renewables can power the planet and our industries - or they just don't work. Make up your mind. They can power the planet and our industries, as long as we're wise about their use. Using them for crypto mining is an unwise use, akin to leaving the A/C on and all your windows open. > Proof of Work exists to remove any subjectivity from consensus. Longest valid chain with most work, period. Subjectivity = politics, and everything that comes with it. You can't seriously say crypto governance is free of politics. Look at the block size debate, or all the weirdness around ETH2. > devs do not have anywhere as much control as you think, and the ecosystem can trivially eject malicious devs. happened a number of times. ETH devs keep pushing ETH2 into the future, putting off the gains of people who bought into PoS and shoring up the positions of people who invested in big PoW mining rigs. That's politics, with devs at the heart of it. I can't think of a bigger issue in ETH, now or ever. > Everyone is a criminal. First of all the book that "article" references is pretty cranky. That said, it's true that it's very easy to incidentally commit crimes. However, there's plainly a difference between incidental criminal acts, and trafficking drugs or people. Don't equivocate between these two things. [1]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-15/turks-are-yield-hunting-as-lira-s-woes-deepen-love-for-dollars https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-15/turks-are... [2]: https://www.coindesk.com/turkey-doesnt-regulate-crypto-its-thriving https://www.coindesk.com/turkey-doesnt-regulate-crypto-its-t... [3]: https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/5/5/for-the-ruined-turkeys-crypto-crackdown-comes-too-late https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/5/5/for-the-ruined-tu... [4]: https://cdn.crowdfundinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2018-ccaf-2nd-global-cryptoasset-benchmarking-study.pdf#page=84 https://cdn.crowdfundinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/...