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Not sure if this is of use (since submissions should link to english content in the first place), but here is a rough translation: Joshua: > @Hetzner_online h

Not sure if this is of use (since submissions should link to english content in the first place), but here is a rough translation: Joshua: > @Hetzner_online has silently changed their T&C and banned entire IP ranges this morning around 9:20 am. [I] cancelled and moved 50 AX41 in the past 36h. Deeply disappointed, even though the change does not affect me. Hetzner Online GmbH: > Yes it's true, we have amended the T&C and forbidden crypto mining. We received many orders for servers with large hard drives. But increasingly large storage boxes are also being rented for this. For storage boxes this leads to problems with the bandwidth of the host systems. For Chia mining, the disks are additionally extremely taxed due to the amount of read and write operations, causing them to break quickly. Joshua: > I understand that. But when I rent a server, I want to be able to use the hardware. That is, if I want to roast the CPU or write to the disks 24/7, I should be able to do that, because I rented the full server.

elliekelly 5y ago
> I understand that. But when I rent a server, I want to be able to use the hardware. That is, if I want to roast the CPU or write to the disks 24/7, I should be able to do that, because I rented the full server. I wonder if the legal concept of “wasting” has been (or could be) applied to rented servers. Edit: Wikipedia[1] for anyone curious but the article seems a bit incomplete/inaccurate to me because it insinuates the concept applies only to "real property" but it can apply to trust assets, including personal property, as well. I suppose the difference is a trustee owes an equal fiduciary duty to all beneficiaries, including future beneficiaries, while a server user has no such duty to the server owner or future potential server users. I don't see why an anti-wasting provision couldn't be included in the rental agreement, though. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_(law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_(law)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- gruez 5y ago
  Such concept exists? If I want to rent a car to go on relaxing drives up and down the interstate, what business do they have to stop me (assuming the car rental comes with unlimited miles)?
  - Guest42 5y ago
    Given that there is a fairly limited number of car renters, I’d imagine that they share data on customers that over-use services. Such practices exist in banking, retail, and hospitality.
    - that_guy_iain 5y ago
      This would be illegal within the EU. And I also doubt that many companies are sharing customer data, not because of privacy reasons but for business reasons.
  - tingletech 5y ago
    relaxing drives on the interstate should be fine -- but if you negligently damage the car by driving 500 miles at high speed with the parking break on, then you are wasting.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > If I want to rent a car to go on relaxing drives up and down the interstate, what business do they have to stop me This is fine. If you use your rental car to drag race and off-road, it’s reasonable for them to ban you from doing business with them.
  - xoa 5y ago
    >Such concept exists? Yes, terms against costs incurred due to extreme, malicious or negligent conduct by a renter are fairly common I think across nearly every service aren't they? I mean for a completely different category, take typical tenant agreements for housing rental. A lot of rentals include some level of utilities, particularly if they're in a location with stuff like public water/sewer. And in turn there is a lot of language like this (first result from a quick search on google [1]) >UTILITIES & SERVICES >"III. Tenant may not be negligent in his/her use of any included utility or service. If by tenants negligence, the utility bill or service fee dramatically increases, tenant will be billed for any overages which will then be due and payable by tenant as additional rent." Which is just another case of writing out legally a pretty common sense social contract "don't be an asshole" type of thing. The included utilities are so that billing is easier and bills more predictable by everyone for something everyone uses and the costs of which are spread out across many. But as adults everyone is expected to not do things like leave the water running, forget and then go on vacation for a few weeks wasting tens of thousands of gallons. Since some people have inevitably decided they can do whatever with no consequences if there isn't force behind it contracts have to cover massive amounts of stuff these days which can be irritating. But the principle itself is not an unreasonable thing is it? ---- 1: https://auctioneersoftware.s3.amazonaws.com/ash/2021/2/VDhxpfJ0G1NntinOlmlpt_MM.pdf https://auctioneersoftware.s3.amazonaws.com/ash/2021/2/VDhxp...
rajin444 5y ago
Sounds like they should have communicated these changes to their customers. If the customer is not breaking the TOS and you cut them off with no notice because you want to change your TOS going forward that's a bad look.
- phone8675309 5y ago
  Most TOSes contain both a provision that they can be changed at any time and that you can be cut off for any reason (so long as it's not an illegal one) and for no reason at all. Not saying that it's right that they do, just saying that they do.
  - that_guy_iain 5y ago
    A quick google in German turns up a legal site that says a contract for ongoing services can't be altered unless there is a clause and they must be notified. I can confirm people were not notified as I'm a customer. A translation > In the case of current contracts (so-called "continuing obligations"), e. B. Rental contracts, be it for apartments, web servers, software or the use of a social network, GTC may not be changed during the term. > In the case of continuing obligations, the contractual partners can either voluntarily agree to the new terms and conditions. However, it is also possible to include an amendment clause that allows tacit change. Then the contracting parties must be informed of the changes and that the changes will come into force if they do not contradict them. Germany has pretty strict laws about Terms and Conditions since they assume no one reads the things anyways or are able to properly understand them if they did.
tw04 5y ago
> I understand that. But when I rent a server, I want to be able to use the hardware. That is, if I want to roast the CPU or write to the disks 24/7, I should be able to do that, because I rented the full server. No, when you BUY a server you should be able to do what you want with it, including burning up the CPU in a week. When you RENT a server, you get to do exactly what the owner says you can do.
- mirekrusin 5y ago
  Where is the line between allowed and banned? Mining crypto you created and researching on? Mining crypto where mining doesn't use ie. drive, ie. maybe is latency based or something else? Doing research project with your own blockchain on git or whatever?
  - tw04 5y ago
    I don’t work for hetzner, you would need to ask them. If you’re asking philosophically: the answer is exactly the same. The line is wherever they say it is, it’s their hardware.
  - xoa 5y ago
    >Where is the line between allowed and banned? Uh, in the contract (here the Terms and Conditions) the customer agreed to? That's kind of how business transactions work. Hence why they updated the T&C. This isn't some abstract question of philosophy, it's their hardware that they rent under their T&C which they can revise at will (and customers may then go elsewhere, or not). In the case of rental in general, it often includes some expectations around non-abusive usage. Part of the entire freaking model of "rental" is that a customer of some property can cease usage at will on a rapid time frame, dealing with no capital expenditure/depreciation/maintenance issues, and then the property can be rented to new customer. If one customer destroys said property or massive degrades it such that it can no longer be used for future customers, that completely changes the entire equation. And most rental businesses outside of special (and extremely expensive) situations don't want to deal with that. There isn't anything unreasonable about that. If people want to use hardware to the absolute max with absolutely zero control except the law and contracts for their energy/bandwidth, that's what colo is for.
throw5away 5y ago
> since submissions should link to english content in the first place I don't think this is the case. I certainly don't see anything like that in the [guidelines](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
fxtentacle 5y ago
Just FYI they already disallowed crypto mining a long time ago. I believe it was because it tends to attract people using stolen credit cards to rent servers. EDIT: found it. "there is just generally a lot of bad actors out there, even people not directly doing mining -- people who don't pay their invoices, commit fraud" https://www.reddit.com/r/hetzner/comments/jijeby/why_is_hetzner_not_accomodating_to_cryptorelated/gad4x6x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/hetzner/comments/jijeby/why_is_hetz...
arp242 5y ago
> I understand that. But when I rent a server, I want to be able to use the hardware. That is, if I want to roast the CPU or write to the disks 24/7, I should be able to do that, because I rented the full server. If you have a single server and you're maxing out the CPU and drive: this probably isn't that much of an issue; most people don't and having the occasional user who does is okay. An entire community of people doing this en-masse: well, that's a bit more problematic.
_the_inflator 5y ago
> I understand that. But when I rent a server, I want to be able to use the hardware. That is, if I want to roast the CPU or write to the disks 24/7, I should be able to do that, because I rented the full server. Since this is Germany, we had similar discussions in the early 00 years with the term "flatrate" for internet access as well as downloads. In the beginning many internet access providers advertised using the term "flatrate" but what they meant was "fair use". Reminds me of that.
rambojazz 5y ago
Oh boy! Wait till he finds out about "unlimited" traffic.

elliekelly 5y ago

> I understand that. But when I rent a server, I want to be able to use the hardware. That is, if I want to roast the CPU or write to the disks 24/7, I should be able to do that, because I rented the full server. I wonder if the legal concept of “wasting” has been (or could be) applied to rented servers. Edit: Wikipedia[1] for anyone curious but the article seems a bit incomplete/inaccurate to me because it insinuates the concept applies only to "real property" but it can apply to trust assets, including personal property, as well. I suppose the difference is a trustee owes an equal fiduciary duty to all beneficiaries, including future beneficiaries, while a server user has no such duty to the server owner or future potential server users. I don't see why an anti-wasting provision couldn't be included in the rental agreement, though. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_(law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_(law)

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gruez 5y ago
Such concept exists? If I want to rent a car to go on relaxing drives up and down the interstate, what business do they have to stop me (assuming the car rental comes with unlimited miles)?
- Guest42 5y ago
  Given that there is a fairly limited number of car renters, I’d imagine that they share data on customers that over-use services. Such practices exist in banking, retail, and hospitality.
  - that_guy_iain 5y ago
    This would be illegal within the EU. And I also doubt that many companies are sharing customer data, not because of privacy reasons but for business reasons.
- tingletech 5y ago
  relaxing drives on the interstate should be fine -- but if you negligently damage the car by driving 500 miles at high speed with the parking break on, then you are wasting.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > If I want to rent a car to go on relaxing drives up and down the interstate, what business do they have to stop me This is fine. If you use your rental car to drag race and off-road, it’s reasonable for them to ban you from doing business with them.
- xoa 5y ago
  >Such concept exists? Yes, terms against costs incurred due to extreme, malicious or negligent conduct by a renter are fairly common I think across nearly every service aren't they? I mean for a completely different category, take typical tenant agreements for housing rental. A lot of rentals include some level of utilities, particularly if they're in a location with stuff like public water/sewer. And in turn there is a lot of language like this (first result from a quick search on google [1]) >UTILITIES & SERVICES >"III. Tenant may not be negligent in his/her use of any included utility or service. If by tenants negligence, the utility bill or service fee dramatically increases, tenant will be billed for any overages which will then be due and payable by tenant as additional rent." Which is just another case of writing out legally a pretty common sense social contract "don't be an asshole" type of thing. The included utilities are so that billing is easier and bills more predictable by everyone for something everyone uses and the costs of which are spread out across many. But as adults everyone is expected to not do things like leave the water running, forget and then go on vacation for a few weeks wasting tens of thousands of gallons. Since some people have inevitably decided they can do whatever with no consequences if there isn't force behind it contracts have to cover massive amounts of stuff these days which can be irritating. But the principle itself is not an unreasonable thing is it? ---- 1: https://auctioneersoftware.s3.amazonaws.com/ash/2021/2/VDhxpfJ0G1NntinOlmlpt_MM.pdf https://auctioneersoftware.s3.amazonaws.com/ash/2021/2/VDhxp...

rajin444 5y ago

Sounds like they should have communicated these changes to their customers. If the customer is not breaking the TOS and you cut them off with no notice because you want to change your TOS going forward that's a bad look.

phone8675309 5y ago
Most TOSes contain both a provision that they can be changed at any time and that you can be cut off for any reason (so long as it's not an illegal one) and for no reason at all. Not saying that it's right that they do, just saying that they do.
- that_guy_iain 5y ago
  A quick google in German turns up a legal site that says a contract for ongoing services can't be altered unless there is a clause and they must be notified. I can confirm people were not notified as I'm a customer. A translation > In the case of current contracts (so-called "continuing obligations"), e. B. Rental contracts, be it for apartments, web servers, software or the use of a social network, GTC may not be changed during the term. > In the case of continuing obligations, the contractual partners can either voluntarily agree to the new terms and conditions. However, it is also possible to include an amendment clause that allows tacit change. Then the contracting parties must be informed of the changes and that the changes will come into force if they do not contradict them. Germany has pretty strict laws about Terms and Conditions since they assume no one reads the things anyways or are able to properly understand them if they did.

tw04 5y ago

> I understand that. But when I rent a server, I want to be able to use the hardware. That is, if I want to roast the CPU or write to the disks 24/7, I should be able to do that, because I rented the full server. No, when you BUY a server you should be able to do what you want with it, including burning up the CPU in a week. When you RENT a server, you get to do exactly what the owner says you can do.

mirekrusin 5y ago
Where is the line between allowed and banned? Mining crypto you created and researching on? Mining crypto where mining doesn't use ie. drive, ie. maybe is latency based or something else? Doing research project with your own blockchain on git or whatever?
- tw04 5y ago
  I don’t work for hetzner, you would need to ask them. If you’re asking philosophically: the answer is exactly the same. The line is wherever they say it is, it’s their hardware.
- xoa 5y ago
  >Where is the line between allowed and banned? Uh, in the contract (here the Terms and Conditions) the customer agreed to? That's kind of how business transactions work. Hence why they updated the T&C. This isn't some abstract question of philosophy, it's their hardware that they rent under their T&C which they can revise at will (and customers may then go elsewhere, or not). In the case of rental in general, it often includes some expectations around non-abusive usage. Part of the entire freaking model of "rental" is that a customer of some property can cease usage at will on a rapid time frame, dealing with no capital expenditure/depreciation/maintenance issues, and then the property can be rented to new customer. If one customer destroys said property or massive degrades it such that it can no longer be used for future customers, that completely changes the entire equation. And most rental businesses outside of special (and extremely expensive) situations don't want to deal with that. There isn't anything unreasonable about that. If people want to use hardware to the absolute max with absolutely zero control except the law and contracts for their energy/bandwidth, that's what colo is for.

throw5away 5y ago

> since submissions should link to english content in the first place I don't think this is the case. I certainly don't see anything like that in the [guidelines](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

fxtentacle 5y ago

Just FYI they already disallowed crypto mining a long time ago. I believe it was because it tends to attract people using stolen credit cards to rent servers. EDIT: found it. "there is just generally a lot of bad actors out there, even people not directly doing mining -- people who don't pay their invoices, commit fraud" https://www.reddit.com/r/hetzner/comments/jijeby/why_is_hetzner_not_accomodating_to_cryptorelated/gad4x6x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/hetzner/comments/jijeby/why_is_hetz...

arp242 5y ago

> I understand that. But when I rent a server, I want to be able to use the hardware. That is, if I want to roast the CPU or write to the disks 24/7, I should be able to do that, because I rented the full server. If you have a single server and you're maxing out the CPU and drive: this probably isn't that much of an issue; most people don't and having the occasional user who does is okay. An entire community of people doing this en-masse: well, that's a bit more problematic.

_the_inflator 5y ago

> I understand that. But when I rent a server, I want to be able to use the hardware. That is, if I want to roast the CPU or write to the disks 24/7, I should be able to do that, because I rented the full server. Since this is Germany, we had similar discussions in the early 00 years with the term "flatrate" for internet access as well as downloads. In the beginning many internet access providers advertised using the term "flatrate" but what they meant was "fair use". Reminds me of that.

rambojazz 5y ago

Oh boy! Wait till he finds out about "unlimited" traffic.