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>the existance of a legal threat to freenode has become apparent. We cannot know the substance of this legal threat as it contains some kind of gag order preven

>the existance of a legal threat to freenode has become apparent. We cannot know the substance of this legal threat as it contains some kind of gag order preventing its broader discussion within staff. Is there any more context about this? I'd be interested to read logs. Are they saying Andrew Lee got an NSL for freenode?

puyoxyz 5y ago
Log (#freenode): https://paste.sr.ht/~ircwright/7e751d2162e4eb27cba25f6f8893c1f38930f7c4 https://paste.sr.ht/~ircwright/7e751d2162e4eb27cba25f6f8893c... Log from after that one (#freenode-staff-discussion): https://paste.sr.ht/blob/4f5c7a6b3f6adb4697572f8cd77582fa16a123de https://paste.sr.ht/blob/4f5c7a6b3f6adb4697572f8cd77582fa16a...
- EE84M3i 5y ago
  I skimmed these logs and it is not clear what legal order they are talking about or in what way there is a gag. Are there specific lines in these logs that go into detail?
bsedlm 5y ago
> Are they saying Andrew Lee got an NSL for freenode? no of course they are not saying that, they would be punished if they did (because it would be illegal). now, that such a thing exists in a "democracy"... is a topic on its own broader scope.
- fmajid 5y ago
  Apparently it’s in the UK, where judges are prompt to issue “superinjunctions” where even discussing the injunction is contempt of court and can incur a prison sentence. Whether a monarchy without a written constitution, or separation of Church and State can be considered a democracy is left as an exercise to the reader.
  - Pet_Ant 5y ago
    The constitution is entirely written, we're just not sure which documents are part of it...
    - jkaplowitz 5y ago
      Source? Everything I've ever heard about the UK constitution is that it has both written and unwritten elements. Indeed, no statute or court ruling even defines the important head of government role of Prime Minister.
  - chriswarbo 5y ago
    > Whether a monarchy without a written constitution, or separation of Church and State can be considered a democracy is left as an exercise to the reader. That's begging the question, since it assumes an objective answer. Rather, "it is up to the reader whether they consider a monarchy without a written consistution, or separation of Church and State, to be a democracy". Even that is rather silly, since it's drawing arbitrary lines on a spectrum of more/less democratic. Some are pretty clean, e.g. direct democracy is more democratic than representative democracy; an elected head of a republic is more democratic than an inherited head of a monarchy. Others have more overlap, and hence aren't strictly ordered in the abstract, e.g. written versus unwritten constitutions, sortition versus election, etc.
    - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
      >Some are pretty clean, e.g. direct democracy is more democratic than representative democracy // Unless the people want representational democracy but are forced into direct democracy. Or, in theory (and I can't stress that enough that this is theoretical), representational democracy could better represent people than they can represent for themselves .. I can fix my own windows, but the glazier will probably do a better job. In the same way a group of professional politicians, in theory, could more closely represent the combined will of the demos than could direct democracy -- like how an adult stops a child from eating cake before they're sick -- knowing what is best for oneself, and what's best for society according to ones own choice of self-societal balance, is a hard thing that needs professional input. I might add I think UK (and probably USA) democracy is seriously broken and that representational democracy isn't working well; but direct democracy is too easy to pervert with propaganda.
- rsync 5y ago
  "... now, that such a thing exists in a "democracy"... is a topic on its own broader scope." In other news, the rsync.net Warrant Canary turned 15 years old last month: https://twitter.com/rsyncnet/status/1387090538273206274 https://twitter.com/rsyncnet/status/1387090538273206274
  - cle 5y ago
    Are these reliable? Can a judge compel someone to continue publishing a canary to prevent leaking the information?
    - remram 5y ago
      And is it unthinkable someone would do it without a legal requirement, to keep their business afloat?
      - mynameisvlad 5y ago
        Actually, yes. Likely fewer people would leave and there would be far fewer repercussions to be honest about the canary than for someone to discover it was falsely put up. The longer the charade goes on, the worse the blowback will be.
wasmitnetzen 5y ago
There are numerous situations where gag orders can be issued, both in the US and the UK, not just NSLs. [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag_order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag_order

puyoxyz 5y ago

Log (#freenode): https://paste.sr.ht/~ircwright/7e751d2162e4eb27cba25f6f8893c1f38930f7c4 https://paste.sr.ht/~ircwright/7e751d2162e4eb27cba25f6f8893c... Log from after that one (#freenode-staff-discussion): https://paste.sr.ht/blob/4f5c7a6b3f6adb4697572f8cd77582fa16a123de https://paste.sr.ht/blob/4f5c7a6b3f6adb4697572f8cd77582fa16a...

EE84M3i 5y ago
I skimmed these logs and it is not clear what legal order they are talking about or in what way there is a gag. Are there specific lines in these logs that go into detail?

bsedlm 5y ago

> Are they saying Andrew Lee got an NSL for freenode? no of course they are not saying that, they would be punished if they did (because it would be illegal). now, that such a thing exists in a "democracy"... is a topic on its own broader scope.

fmajid 5y ago
Apparently it’s in the UK, where judges are prompt to issue “superinjunctions” where even discussing the injunction is contempt of court and can incur a prison sentence. Whether a monarchy without a written constitution, or separation of Church and State can be considered a democracy is left as an exercise to the reader.
- Pet_Ant 5y ago
  The constitution is entirely written, we're just not sure which documents are part of it...
  - jkaplowitz 5y ago
    Source? Everything I've ever heard about the UK constitution is that it has both written and unwritten elements. Indeed, no statute or court ruling even defines the important head of government role of Prime Minister.
- chriswarbo 5y ago
  > Whether a monarchy without a written constitution, or separation of Church and State can be considered a democracy is left as an exercise to the reader. That's begging the question, since it assumes an objective answer. Rather, "it is up to the reader whether they consider a monarchy without a written consistution, or separation of Church and State, to be a democracy". Even that is rather silly, since it's drawing arbitrary lines on a spectrum of more/less democratic. Some are pretty clean, e.g. direct democracy is more democratic than representative democracy; an elected head of a republic is more democratic than an inherited head of a monarchy. Others have more overlap, and hence aren't strictly ordered in the abstract, e.g. written versus unwritten constitutions, sortition versus election, etc.
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    >Some are pretty clean, e.g. direct democracy is more democratic than representative democracy // Unless the people want representational democracy but are forced into direct democracy. Or, in theory (and I can't stress that enough that this is theoretical), representational democracy could better represent people than they can represent for themselves .. I can fix my own windows, but the glazier will probably do a better job. In the same way a group of professional politicians, in theory, could more closely represent the combined will of the demos than could direct democracy -- like how an adult stops a child from eating cake before they're sick -- knowing what is best for oneself, and what's best for society according to ones own choice of self-societal balance, is a hard thing that needs professional input. I might add I think UK (and probably USA) democracy is seriously broken and that representational democracy isn't working well; but direct democracy is too easy to pervert with propaganda.
rsync 5y ago
"... now, that such a thing exists in a "democracy"... is a topic on its own broader scope." In other news, the rsync.net Warrant Canary turned 15 years old last month: https://twitter.com/rsyncnet/status/1387090538273206274 https://twitter.com/rsyncnet/status/1387090538273206274
- cle 5y ago
  Are these reliable? Can a judge compel someone to continue publishing a canary to prevent leaking the information?
  - remram 5y ago
    And is it unthinkable someone would do it without a legal requirement, to keep their business afloat?
    - mynameisvlad 5y ago
      Actually, yes. Likely fewer people would leave and there would be far fewer repercussions to be honest about the canary than for someone to discover it was falsely put up. The longer the charade goes on, the worse the blowback will be.

wasmitnetzen 5y ago

There are numerous situations where gag orders can be issued, both in the US and the UK, not just NSLs. [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag_order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag_order