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Even without the race element - there’s definitely a class thing. I noticed it when I moved to the Bay Area after growing up in western New York. The types of

Even without the race element - there’s definitely a class thing. I noticed it when I moved to the Bay Area after growing up in western New York. The types of foods people ate or didn’t eat, the restaurants people would or would not go to. The shows people would or would not watch, even the way people talked. I think I hadn’t really seen the difference in class behavior before in America. Now it’s easy to see it. A lot of it is tightly correlated to wealth and a lot of it reminds me of things the author describes (fear of not being able to find a job, fear of just “taking a year off” because it sounds financially crazy), but it’s not only about wealth really. You can be poor and still act more “upper class” and you can be rich and still act “working class”. It’s a lot of little things people do in preferences and how they talk/behave.

phone8675309 5y ago
> You can be poor and still act more “upper class” and you can be rich and still act “working class”. You are stunningly naive if you think that a poor person acting more "upper class" isn't reminded that they're "out of their lane" more than someone rich acting "working class".
- jmt_ 5y ago
  Spot on. Every time I wear "fancy" clothes I'm constantly worrying that everyone is pointing at me thinking "we know who you really are, you're poor and don't deserve to be acting this way". This is despite me moving away from my poor town years ago and establishing a solid job for myself. Nobody in my new town knows me at all yet I assume they know I came from a "less than" background. A poor person must undo decades of the effects poverty inflicts to truly appear "rich" where a rich person must simply "lower their standards" to act working class.
  - xyzelement 5y ago
    > must simply "lower their standards" to act working class. You make that sound easy, but I see the situation as symmetric. For example, my wife grew up wealthier than I did - and when it came time for us to buy a car, her first question was "how big a car would we need to comfortably move our family around" while mine was "what's the most affordable?" it's a completely different mindset - she is frustrated that I default to a poor mindset and I am frustrated that she defaults to a rich one. Neither one is easy to switch.
    - jmt_ 5y ago
      I'm talking about the case where a person doesn't get to "choose" to act poor. The poor person doesn't get to choose to think other than what is affordable, where someone with more money gets the choice to thinking of things other than affordability, like comfortably. The mindset that develops from a lack of agency in one's life is more traumatizing than one that does have that agency but must learn to change their mindset. Different people might not be as effected by poverty however.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    You don't need anything even close to overly "fancy"; if you're the average poor person, you can vastly improve your image simply by wearing any sort of formal clothes, as in a suit and tie. Even if others "know who you really are" they'll still appreciate that you're making the effort to relate to them, and that's what matters. We tend to forget stuff like this as we lose sight of the value of enduring traditions, but if you look at visual records of how older generations behaved you'll see plenty of poorer folks looking quite comfortable in formal wear.
    - jmt_ 5y ago
      But poor people hate feeling like they have to change their appearance to get the approval of the privileged classes. Feeling like you have to visually and verbally code switch to get "better" people to respect you just feels bad. Spending precious money on the cheapest formal wear you can find just so people will take you seriously further cements the divide poor people feel.
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        > But poor people hate feeling like they have to change their appearance to get the approval of the privileged classes. You say that like everyone else isn't doing the exact same thing. Being privileged is all about playing the "get everyone else's approval" game. But coming from a different social context it's even more basically a way of showing others respect and earning their trust, so it's not without consequence.
        fossuser 5y ago
        It loops back around at the top. It’s why there’s an eccentric rich person trope and why it’s called “fuck you” money. If you’re totally financially independent you’re more free to do what you want, independent of class behavior expectations (or even in contradiction of them). They no longer matter that much (unless you’re doing something that requires politics or people).
        jmt_ 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dcx 5y ago
  No need to go for the throat there. And especially not when you're not totally correct. Paul Fussell's Class documents the exact phenomenon OP describes. Wealth is not class [1]; class is much more complex. For example, poor academics are higher class than rich blue-collar workers. Donald Trump is crazy rich but affects many of the working-class behaviours described in said book (technically "high prole"). Barack Obama has much less money but most would view him as upper-middle class. Nobody would accuse the above of being "out of their lane". My very rough approximation: class is something like the integral of wealth over very long periods of time. Being rich and well-connected for long periods gives you a chance to accumulate high-status behaviours and preferences, which can persist even when the wealth doesn't, and continue to confer benefits. Preferring golf or tennis to say, bowling, doesn't necessarily come with a major difference in affordability. But being good at golf might help your career more than bowling. Reading more helps in tons of ways, and most people only pick up this habit if they grow up with access to good education and parental cognitive surplus. [1] https://resourcegeneration.org/breakdown-of-class-characteristics-income-brackets/ https://resourcegeneration.org/breakdown-of-class-characteri...
  - fossuser 5y ago
    Yeah - I agree with all of this. On a related note, I think the US approach to dismissing class is preferable to the UK where it’s very explicit. While both approaches have issues, when it’s explicit in the culture people seem to discriminate on it more (or even self-sort themselves based on identity). I think ideally it’s better for a culture to try to not do that, but pragmatically it’s good to be aware of its existence in order to be successful. I mostly chalk it up to social skills. On specifically being told to “stay in your lane” my point was more that if you’re behaving a certain way you won’t be told that, because the other people will assume you’re like them. It’s not only about wealth (though as in the article, the behavior is often related).
    - 2cb 5y ago
      > On a related note, I think the US approach to dismissing class is preferable to the UK where it’s very explicit. Huh. My perception has always been that America is far more obsessed with class and “keeping up with the Joneses” than Britain. That said, I have in the past been called “rich” in a derogatory manner just for owning an iPad. But that’s more an amusing anecdote than social commentary. I find this type of thing to be the exception rather than the norm. For context I’m a Brit with a decent job but my family is certainly not upper middle class or even middle class and all my friends are working class because those are the people I naturally get along with. For the most part the fact I make more money doesn’t cause any friction in those social circles. One of my mates even said to me if he didn’t know better he’d assume I lived on a council estate. I guess the point I’m trying to make is the class lines are very blurred in modern day British society except for at the extremes. As such it’s not something people tend to obsess over. On the other hand I’ve found that, in general, middle class Yanks tend to care more about being perceived a certain way so people know they’re middle class or upper middle class or whatever else. I’ve even seen them argue over exactly what constitutes “real” upper middle class compared to regular middle class. Not something I’ve ever seen Brits do.
Mauricebranagh 5y ago
And also surprising the author did not experience it at Uni where even well off middle class people, suddenly are mixing with much wealthier people. I remeber my cousin who went to UMIST saying this and that side of the family was well off. Its even more noticeable if you went to oxbridge and bumped into some one like Borris Johnson and his Bullingdon mates.
- fossuser 5y ago
  This is highly dependent on university - I didn’t notice it much where I went (RPI), but it’s a lot more obvious at Stanford.
- OminousWeapons 5y ago
  I think this is school dependent. In my experience, many wealthy kids will hide behaviors they know are associated with being wealthy / hide their backgrounds in order to better fit in. The awkwardness goes both ways.
  - Mauricebranagh 5y ago
    Middle class kids might, not upper class wealthy ones not so much.
- kixiQu 5y ago
  Not all of us went to schools that have "much wealthier people" attending, of course.
  - Mauricebranagh 5y ago
    I find that hard to believe unless your country has a very stratified higher education system - which is a bad thing.
    - kixiQu 5y ago
      Well, my country is the US, and I am speaking from experience. I'm definitely not saying it's a good thing. It's just important to acknowledge that "the college experience" of elites and the elite-adjacent doesn't represent the common post-secondary case here.
fmajid 5y ago
Much racism in America is actually classism. That's why something like Henry Louis Gates being profiled by a neighbor and a policeman as he was trying to get back to his Harvard home makes the news: Gates is an educated upper-class black man, and in this case he was treated as the latter rather than the former.
- istjohn 5y ago
  I think you could argue that the opposite is true. Much classism in America is actually racism. For example, opposition to welfare programs have often been motivated by racist tropes like welfare queens. The truth is that racism and classism in America are deeply intertwined.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    Explain how opposition to welfare programs is racism. Also, please explain why impoverished minority communities have not vastly improved regardless of the constantly increasing money tossed into welfare programs.
    - chris11 5y ago
      The comment wasn't that opposition to welfare programs was solely caused by racism, just that it was one motivation. It's easier to defend a racist policy if racism is never explicitly brought up, the policy just has a disparate impact along racial lines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater#%22Southern_strategy%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater#%22Southern_strate...
      - CountDrewku 5y ago
        >The comment wasn't that opposition to welfare programs was solely caused by racism, just that it was one motivation Ok so how would one oppose welfare programs and not be labeled racist? Do you believe there are no individuals taking advantage of the welfare system and that pointing out anyone who is would be racist?
throwaway5153 5y ago
Class[0] by Paul Fussell is a great book on this topic. The back of the book has a test to identify your class. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class:_A_Guide_Through_the_American_Status_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class:_A_Guide_Through_the_Ame...

phone8675309 5y ago

> You can be poor and still act more “upper class” and you can be rich and still act “working class”. You are stunningly naive if you think that a poor person acting more "upper class" isn't reminded that they're "out of their lane" more than someone rich acting "working class".

jmt_ 5y ago
Spot on. Every time I wear "fancy" clothes I'm constantly worrying that everyone is pointing at me thinking "we know who you really are, you're poor and don't deserve to be acting this way". This is despite me moving away from my poor town years ago and establishing a solid job for myself. Nobody in my new town knows me at all yet I assume they know I came from a "less than" background. A poor person must undo decades of the effects poverty inflicts to truly appear "rich" where a rich person must simply "lower their standards" to act working class.
- xyzelement 5y ago
  > must simply "lower their standards" to act working class. You make that sound easy, but I see the situation as symmetric. For example, my wife grew up wealthier than I did - and when it came time for us to buy a car, her first question was "how big a car would we need to comfortably move our family around" while mine was "what's the most affordable?" it's a completely different mindset - she is frustrated that I default to a poor mindset and I am frustrated that she defaults to a rich one. Neither one is easy to switch.
  - jmt_ 5y ago
    I'm talking about the case where a person doesn't get to "choose" to act poor. The poor person doesn't get to choose to think other than what is affordable, where someone with more money gets the choice to thinking of things other than affordability, like comfortably. The mindset that develops from a lack of agency in one's life is more traumatizing than one that does have that agency but must learn to change their mindset. Different people might not be as effected by poverty however.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  You don't need anything even close to overly "fancy"; if you're the average poor person, you can vastly improve your image simply by wearing any sort of formal clothes, as in a suit and tie. Even if others "know who you really are" they'll still appreciate that you're making the effort to relate to them, and that's what matters. We tend to forget stuff like this as we lose sight of the value of enduring traditions, but if you look at visual records of how older generations behaved you'll see plenty of poorer folks looking quite comfortable in formal wear.
  - jmt_ 5y ago
    But poor people hate feeling like they have to change their appearance to get the approval of the privileged classes. Feeling like you have to visually and verbally code switch to get "better" people to respect you just feels bad. Spending precious money on the cheapest formal wear you can find just so people will take you seriously further cements the divide poor people feel.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      > But poor people hate feeling like they have to change their appearance to get the approval of the privileged classes. You say that like everyone else isn't doing the exact same thing. Being privileged is all about playing the "get everyone else's approval" game. But coming from a different social context it's even more basically a way of showing others respect and earning their trust, so it's not without consequence.
      - fossuser 5y ago
        It loops back around at the top. It’s why there’s an eccentric rich person trope and why it’s called “fuck you” money. If you’re totally financially independent you’re more free to do what you want, independent of class behavior expectations (or even in contradiction of them). They no longer matter that much (unless you’re doing something that requires politics or people).
      - jmt_ 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dcx 5y ago
No need to go for the throat there. And especially not when you're not totally correct. Paul Fussell's Class documents the exact phenomenon OP describes. Wealth is not class [1]; class is much more complex. For example, poor academics are higher class than rich blue-collar workers. Donald Trump is crazy rich but affects many of the working-class behaviours described in said book (technically "high prole"). Barack Obama has much less money but most would view him as upper-middle class. Nobody would accuse the above of being "out of their lane". My very rough approximation: class is something like the integral of wealth over very long periods of time. Being rich and well-connected for long periods gives you a chance to accumulate high-status behaviours and preferences, which can persist even when the wealth doesn't, and continue to confer benefits. Preferring golf or tennis to say, bowling, doesn't necessarily come with a major difference in affordability. But being good at golf might help your career more than bowling. Reading more helps in tons of ways, and most people only pick up this habit if they grow up with access to good education and parental cognitive surplus. [1] https://resourcegeneration.org/breakdown-of-class-characteristics-income-brackets/ https://resourcegeneration.org/breakdown-of-class-characteri...
- fossuser 5y ago
  Yeah - I agree with all of this. On a related note, I think the US approach to dismissing class is preferable to the UK where it’s very explicit. While both approaches have issues, when it’s explicit in the culture people seem to discriminate on it more (or even self-sort themselves based on identity). I think ideally it’s better for a culture to try to not do that, but pragmatically it’s good to be aware of its existence in order to be successful. I mostly chalk it up to social skills. On specifically being told to “stay in your lane” my point was more that if you’re behaving a certain way you won’t be told that, because the other people will assume you’re like them. It’s not only about wealth (though as in the article, the behavior is often related).
  - 2cb 5y ago
    > On a related note, I think the US approach to dismissing class is preferable to the UK where it’s very explicit. Huh. My perception has always been that America is far more obsessed with class and “keeping up with the Joneses” than Britain. That said, I have in the past been called “rich” in a derogatory manner just for owning an iPad. But that’s more an amusing anecdote than social commentary. I find this type of thing to be the exception rather than the norm. For context I’m a Brit with a decent job but my family is certainly not upper middle class or even middle class and all my friends are working class because those are the people I naturally get along with. For the most part the fact I make more money doesn’t cause any friction in those social circles. One of my mates even said to me if he didn’t know better he’d assume I lived on a council estate. I guess the point I’m trying to make is the class lines are very blurred in modern day British society except for at the extremes. As such it’s not something people tend to obsess over. On the other hand I’ve found that, in general, middle class Yanks tend to care more about being perceived a certain way so people know they’re middle class or upper middle class or whatever else. I’ve even seen them argue over exactly what constitutes “real” upper middle class compared to regular middle class. Not something I’ve ever seen Brits do.

Mauricebranagh 5y ago

And also surprising the author did not experience it at Uni where even well off middle class people, suddenly are mixing with much wealthier people. I remeber my cousin who went to UMIST saying this and that side of the family was well off. Its even more noticeable if you went to oxbridge and bumped into some one like Borris Johnson and his Bullingdon mates.

fossuser 5y ago
This is highly dependent on university - I didn’t notice it much where I went (RPI), but it’s a lot more obvious at Stanford.
OminousWeapons 5y ago
I think this is school dependent. In my experience, many wealthy kids will hide behaviors they know are associated with being wealthy / hide their backgrounds in order to better fit in. The awkwardness goes both ways.
- Mauricebranagh 5y ago
  Middle class kids might, not upper class wealthy ones not so much.
kixiQu 5y ago
Not all of us went to schools that have "much wealthier people" attending, of course.
- Mauricebranagh 5y ago
  I find that hard to believe unless your country has a very stratified higher education system - which is a bad thing.
  - kixiQu 5y ago
    Well, my country is the US, and I am speaking from experience. I'm definitely not saying it's a good thing. It's just important to acknowledge that "the college experience" of elites and the elite-adjacent doesn't represent the common post-secondary case here.

fmajid 5y ago

Much racism in America is actually classism. That's why something like Henry Louis Gates being profiled by a neighbor and a policeman as he was trying to get back to his Harvard home makes the news: Gates is an educated upper-class black man, and in this case he was treated as the latter rather than the former.

istjohn 5y ago
I think you could argue that the opposite is true. Much classism in America is actually racism. For example, opposition to welfare programs have often been motivated by racist tropes like welfare queens. The truth is that racism and classism in America are deeply intertwined.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  Explain how opposition to welfare programs is racism. Also, please explain why impoverished minority communities have not vastly improved regardless of the constantly increasing money tossed into welfare programs.
  - chris11 5y ago
    The comment wasn't that opposition to welfare programs was solely caused by racism, just that it was one motivation. It's easier to defend a racist policy if racism is never explicitly brought up, the policy just has a disparate impact along racial lines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater#%22Southern_strategy%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater#%22Southern_strate...
    - CountDrewku 5y ago
      >The comment wasn't that opposition to welfare programs was solely caused by racism, just that it was one motivation Ok so how would one oppose welfare programs and not be labeled racist? Do you believe there are no individuals taking advantage of the welfare system and that pointing out anyone who is would be racist?

throwaway5153 5y ago

Class[0] by Paul Fussell is a great book on this topic. The back of the book has a test to identify your class. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class:_A_Guide_Through_the_American_Status_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class:_A_Guide_Through_the_Ame...