11 ms·

I don't know enough about the US system to comment on that. However in Germany a large part of prison work is around qualification. The inmates can learn a job

I don't know enough about the US system to comment on that. However in Germany a large part of prison work is around qualification. The inmates can learn a job and once released have a useable qualification for finding a job. Most prisons in that way are self supporting. Meaning food is made by inmates who are cooks or are learning to be a chef. Repairs for heating or doors or furniture are made by inmates etc. Only a small part of the work is for external customers and even a smaller part is for the prison's online Shop like https://www.haftsache.de/ https://www.haftsache.de/ And yes salaries are low, but they get free food and accomodation and aren't there for fun but punishment ...

estaseuropano 5y ago
Key difference the German approach is prep for reintegration into society, typical US prison work more seem to be menial jobs (fruit picker).
- adolph 5y ago
  Are you saying that fruit picking is not an occupation integrated into society? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Farm_Workers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Farm_Workers
  - Jolter 5y ago
    No, they are saying that fruit picking is not a job that requires training or qualifications. So prison work picking fruit does not help prepare the inmate for life after release.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - adolph 5y ago
      Are you saying that people in prison lack training or qualifications? Picking fruit is a valid occupation and one that is not limited by post-incarceration rules like not being a stockbroker after committing securities fraud or not being a childcare worker after pedophilia. While many agriculture jobs provide on the job rather than classroom training, there are skills to be acquired that can enhance productivity and value.
      - Jolter 5y ago
        I’m not saying that people in prison lack training or qualifications. That assumption would actually probably hold true, on average, but I have not studied that and that was not my point. My point was that fruit picking, in contrast to many other potential professional activities, is not something that is likely to help an inmate build a post-release career. When you apply for a job as a fruit picker, the employer is not going to reject those candidates who lack former experience.
      - burntoutfire 5y ago
        > Picking fruit is a valid occupation Not really, it's a seasonal job (at least in Germany, but are there climates where plants bear fruit year round?) that doesn't pay enough through the season to sustain you through the entire year.
  - f6v 5y ago
    Competing with seasonal Mexican workers(or whoever else is exploited) will surely put the people back on the streets.
    - adolph 5y ago
      Why do you think former prisoners can't compete with agricultural contractors from Mexico?
      - Jolter 5y ago
        Your style of argument reminds me of the “psychiatrist mode” in Emacs.
        Jolter 5y ago
        “Why do you say that my style of argument reminds you of the psychiatrist mode in Emacs?”
    - Avshalom 5y ago
      Perversely, after release you would be competing for employment against the same slave labor force you just left.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  What is the incidence of repeat crimes after release in Germany ?
  - sammorrowdrums 5y ago
    Germany is about 35% reincarceration rate after 3 years, and US is about 29%, Although there are strong caveats, and like for like data doesn't exist. After 5 years US rate goes up a lot, my link doesn't have that for Germany. > Recidivism rates vary significantly around the world, and many countries have insufficient data. Rates of criminal recidivism around the world are reported to be as high as 50% and have not declined in recent years. It is challenging to compare recidivism between countries because definitions of recidivism outcomes vary from re-arrest to reoffending to reimprisonment. Within these definitions, countries differ in their inclusion of misdemeanors, fines, traffic offenses, and other crimes. Additionally, follow-up times (period after release from incarceration) are inconsistent between and within jurisdictions and vary between six months and five years. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivism-rates-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivis...
    - johannes1234321 5y ago
      > Although there are strong caveats I guess one also has to look at the sort of crimes and duration of the sentences. Also somebody who got a death penalty won't come back ...
      - pmoriarty 5y ago
        "somebody who got a death penalty won't come back" What percentage of the US prison population is on death row?
        formerly_proven 5y ago
        0.1 %
cout 5y ago
Are they there for punishment or for rehabilitation? These two things seem opposite to me, to the point of almost being incompatible.
- nix23 5y ago
  For rehabilitation and protecting the public, there is not really a punishment-thinking in w.-europe prison-systems (not counting the UK)
- tremon 5y ago
  That's a succinct way to sum up the US prison system. Why would the two be incompatible?
  - sammorrowdrums 5y ago
    Well, punitive generally means make them suffer, which likely counteracts progress towards rehabilitation. If you can accept "comprehending and accepting your crimes and their consequences, and having a genuine desire to return to society as a member of it looking to make a positive contribution" as punishement then they are compatible. But you want to transition somebody psychologically from being in the out-group "criminals" to re-joining the in-group of law-abiding citizens, and most purely punitive measures actively make a person feel further pushed into the out-group. You want strong incentives and support towards positive re-integration. I always thought that repeat offences ought to be the most damning statistic for prisons, and their performance and budget should mostly be influenced by success on that metric. Profit from holding prisoners and their labour are basically negative incentives to improve the repeat offending rates.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      I mean, that’s one hypothesis among many. An alternate hypothesis is that prison should be uncomfortable and unpleasant as a deterrent. I think it’s overly simplistic to say that punishment is about suffering—parents might punish a child for bad behavior, but the goal isn’t to make them suffer (and indeed being grounded is hardly “suffering”) but rather to teach them good behavior. So we can at least say that in some cases punishment is compatible with rehabilitation. Notably, there can be a kind of dignity in discipline, and I think there’s a subtle distinction between that kind of dignified correction and cruelty. I can imagine a prison system with a redemptive quality where prisoners feel they’ve labored to redeem themselves to society (this requires society to esteem them accordingly to some degree) and learned a valuable trade in the process. I think liberals (myself included) would do better to cast that vision for prison reform, rather than the current messaging which IMO comes across as hyperbolic (e.g., “literal slavery”) and naive (prison should be a comfortable place and the rest will work itself out).
sandworm101 5y ago
One common US prison job is seasonal firefighter, for forest fire season in California. The irony is that as soon as prisoners are released, being convicted felons, they can never work as firefighters. US prison labor is about money while incarcerated, never about life after release.
- gccs 5y ago
  I don't see why being a felon should keep you from fighting forest fires
  - roflc0ptic 5y ago
    In my area (Tampa, Florida) firefighter jobs are very desirable and there's a lot of competition for them. They're difficult to land. They're very stable, they give you enough free time that many firefighters have second professions/businesses, some days you don't have to work. The role of firefighters has also expanded well beyond fighting fires - they also act as medical first responders, and it's required here that firefighters get EMT certified in their first two years on the job, or else they get fired. So it's... kind of a position with a lot of public trust. I'm not saying I agree with this, but I imagine it would be very bad for a city's leadership if their firefighters went to someone's home for a medical issue and then robbed them.
    - InvertedRhodium 5y ago
      Damn. Most firefighters here in Australia are volunteers around a kernel of professional. Something like 20,000 professionals to 150,000 volunteers.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        Much of the US is volunteer too. It's mostly the big cities that have professionals.
        pmoriarty 5y ago
pmoriarty 5y ago
"The inmates can learn a job and once released have a useable qualification for finding a job." It's one thing to learn a job, and another to waste a large part of your own life making other people rich. "And yes salaries are low, but they get free food and accomodation and aren't there for fun but punishment ... " So what's the point of punishment, exactly? Endless studies which have shown it's not an effective deterrent.
listless 5y ago
I think this is the key: We need to skill/educate these folks. I know that sounds counter-intuitive because they are supposed to be punished. But if we don’t, they will come right back. And every prisoner is a burden on the tax payer. Also, if you’ve paid your debt to society, it should be paid in full - wiped from your record. That only seems fair.

estaseuropano 5y ago

Key difference the German approach is prep for reintegration into society, typical US prison work more seem to be menial jobs (fruit picker).

adolph 5y ago
Are you saying that fruit picking is not an occupation integrated into society? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Farm_Workers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Farm_Workers
- Jolter 5y ago
  No, they are saying that fruit picking is not a job that requires training or qualifications. So prison work picking fruit does not help prepare the inmate for life after release.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - adolph 5y ago
    Are you saying that people in prison lack training or qualifications? Picking fruit is a valid occupation and one that is not limited by post-incarceration rules like not being a stockbroker after committing securities fraud or not being a childcare worker after pedophilia. While many agriculture jobs provide on the job rather than classroom training, there are skills to be acquired that can enhance productivity and value.
    - Jolter 5y ago
      I’m not saying that people in prison lack training or qualifications. That assumption would actually probably hold true, on average, but I have not studied that and that was not my point. My point was that fruit picking, in contrast to many other potential professional activities, is not something that is likely to help an inmate build a post-release career. When you apply for a job as a fruit picker, the employer is not going to reject those candidates who lack former experience.
    - burntoutfire 5y ago
      > Picking fruit is a valid occupation Not really, it's a seasonal job (at least in Germany, but are there climates where plants bear fruit year round?) that doesn't pay enough through the season to sustain you through the entire year.
- f6v 5y ago
  Competing with seasonal Mexican workers(or whoever else is exploited) will surely put the people back on the streets.
  - adolph 5y ago
    Why do you think former prisoners can't compete with agricultural contractors from Mexico?
    - Jolter 5y ago
      Your style of argument reminds me of the “psychiatrist mode” in Emacs.
      - Jolter 5y ago
        “Why do you say that my style of argument reminds you of the psychiatrist mode in Emacs?”
  - Avshalom 5y ago
    Perversely, after release you would be competing for employment against the same slave labor force you just left.
ekianjo 5y ago
What is the incidence of repeat crimes after release in Germany ?
- sammorrowdrums 5y ago
  Germany is about 35% reincarceration rate after 3 years, and US is about 29%, Although there are strong caveats, and like for like data doesn't exist. After 5 years US rate goes up a lot, my link doesn't have that for Germany. > Recidivism rates vary significantly around the world, and many countries have insufficient data. Rates of criminal recidivism around the world are reported to be as high as 50% and have not declined in recent years. It is challenging to compare recidivism between countries because definitions of recidivism outcomes vary from re-arrest to reoffending to reimprisonment. Within these definitions, countries differ in their inclusion of misdemeanors, fines, traffic offenses, and other crimes. Additionally, follow-up times (period after release from incarceration) are inconsistent between and within jurisdictions and vary between six months and five years. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivism-rates-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivis...
  - johannes1234321 5y ago
    > Although there are strong caveats I guess one also has to look at the sort of crimes and duration of the sentences. Also somebody who got a death penalty won't come back ...
    - pmoriarty 5y ago
      "somebody who got a death penalty won't come back" What percentage of the US prison population is on death row?
      - formerly_proven 5y ago
        0.1 %

cout 5y ago

Are they there for punishment or for rehabilitation? These two things seem opposite to me, to the point of almost being incompatible.

nix23 5y ago
For rehabilitation and protecting the public, there is not really a punishment-thinking in w.-europe prison-systems (not counting the UK)
tremon 5y ago
That's a succinct way to sum up the US prison system. Why would the two be incompatible?
- sammorrowdrums 5y ago
  Well, punitive generally means make them suffer, which likely counteracts progress towards rehabilitation. If you can accept "comprehending and accepting your crimes and their consequences, and having a genuine desire to return to society as a member of it looking to make a positive contribution" as punishement then they are compatible. But you want to transition somebody psychologically from being in the out-group "criminals" to re-joining the in-group of law-abiding citizens, and most purely punitive measures actively make a person feel further pushed into the out-group. You want strong incentives and support towards positive re-integration. I always thought that repeat offences ought to be the most damning statistic for prisons, and their performance and budget should mostly be influenced by success on that metric. Profit from holding prisoners and their labour are basically negative incentives to improve the repeat offending rates.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    I mean, that’s one hypothesis among many. An alternate hypothesis is that prison should be uncomfortable and unpleasant as a deterrent. I think it’s overly simplistic to say that punishment is about suffering—parents might punish a child for bad behavior, but the goal isn’t to make them suffer (and indeed being grounded is hardly “suffering”) but rather to teach them good behavior. So we can at least say that in some cases punishment is compatible with rehabilitation. Notably, there can be a kind of dignity in discipline, and I think there’s a subtle distinction between that kind of dignified correction and cruelty. I can imagine a prison system with a redemptive quality where prisoners feel they’ve labored to redeem themselves to society (this requires society to esteem them accordingly to some degree) and learned a valuable trade in the process. I think liberals (myself included) would do better to cast that vision for prison reform, rather than the current messaging which IMO comes across as hyperbolic (e.g., “literal slavery”) and naive (prison should be a comfortable place and the rest will work itself out).

sandworm101 5y ago

One common US prison job is seasonal firefighter, for forest fire season in California. The irony is that as soon as prisoners are released, being convicted felons, they can never work as firefighters. US prison labor is about money while incarcerated, never about life after release.

gccs 5y ago
I don't see why being a felon should keep you from fighting forest fires
- roflc0ptic 5y ago
  In my area (Tampa, Florida) firefighter jobs are very desirable and there's a lot of competition for them. They're difficult to land. They're very stable, they give you enough free time that many firefighters have second professions/businesses, some days you don't have to work. The role of firefighters has also expanded well beyond fighting fires - they also act as medical first responders, and it's required here that firefighters get EMT certified in their first two years on the job, or else they get fired. So it's... kind of a position with a lot of public trust. I'm not saying I agree with this, but I imagine it would be very bad for a city's leadership if their firefighters went to someone's home for a medical issue and then robbed them.
  - InvertedRhodium 5y ago
    Damn. Most firefighters here in Australia are volunteers around a kernel of professional. Something like 20,000 professionals to 150,000 volunteers.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      Much of the US is volunteer too. It's mostly the big cities that have professionals.
      - pmoriarty 5y ago

pmoriarty 5y ago

"The inmates can learn a job and once released have a useable qualification for finding a job." It's one thing to learn a job, and another to waste a large part of your own life making other people rich. "And yes salaries are low, but they get free food and accomodation and aren't there for fun but punishment ... " So what's the point of punishment, exactly? Endless studies which have shown it's not an effective deterrent.

listless 5y ago

I think this is the key: We need to skill/educate these folks. I know that sounds counter-intuitive because they are supposed to be punished. But if we don’t, they will come right back. And every prisoner is a burden on the tax payer. Also, if you’ve paid your debt to society, it should be paid in full - wiped from your record. That only seems fair.