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It's utterly wild how there are people in the comments saying "maybe slave labor is actually good for the slaves." I don't even necessarily disagree with that

It's utterly wild how there are people in the comments saying "maybe slave labor is actually good for the slaves." I don't even necessarily disagree with that possibility - sure, work provides meaning in life, it's better than sitting in a cage. The issue here is the perverse incentives of corporations profiting off of prison labor. Same issue as private prisons - no one should be making money off of keeping people in cages. If we as a society have to do that, fine, but it's unconscionable that it be a profitable venture.

LightG 5y ago
HN should introduce a "super-golden-upvote" which everyone is allowed to use once a year. This post would earn that.
sampo 5y ago
> It's utterly wild how there are people in the comments saying "maybe slave labor is actually good for the slaves." There are many countries that treat their prisoners as prisoners, not as slaves. Maybe prison work can be good in those countries? Just not in yours. There are many articles on how Norway is one of the best countries in rehabilitating prisoners, and in Norwegian prisons prisoners do work. I'd guess that prisoners work in all the countries that are among the world top in rehabilitation.
- omginternets 5y ago
  Agreed. As usual, the debate in the US conflates several distinct issues, using a strangely deformed "fruit of the poisoned tree" logic. Here, the logic goes something like, "US prisons mistreat prisoners, therefore prison labor constitutes mistreatment". Mistreatment of prisoners through labor is an accidental property, not an essential one (as evidenced by countries like Norway).
dalbasal 5y ago
I sympathize with a lot of this, and we'd probably agree at the practical level. As a matter of principle though... the principle is violated inevitably. A prison guard "profits" (or rather, makes a living by) imprisonment. Any company supplying a prison profits. Community service is forced labour, etc. That said, I totally agree on incentives. It's dangerous, especially private prisons. The pay rate does bother me... I can see why real pay isn't done, but just paying pennies per hour does not sit well. Maybe a 3rd party should get the money, and this could take on a restorative rather than punitive aspect. There might even be a case for demonetize prison labour, supply the food directly to food banks instead of for market. The phrase, "debt to society" is used often. Debts are not redeemed by suffering, generally.
- MikeUt 5y ago
  > The pay rate does bother me... I can see why real pay isn't done Is there a reason other than "because they can get away with it"?
  - dalbasal 5y ago
    A reason why its done, or why it bothers me?
    - MikeUt 5y ago
      Why it's done.
      - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
        Prisoners need cash for commissary and prisons get less heat if they can say they payprisoners for work. Just don't look into how much prison shit costs. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/commissary.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/commissary.html https://www.prisonerresource.com/interview/how-much-money-should-i-send-my-incarcerated-loved-one-an-interview-with-prison-expert-christopher-zoukis/ https://www.prisonerresource.com/interview/how-much-money-sh... https://www.prisonphonejustice.org/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20interstate%20(long%20distance),high%20rates%20at%20county%20jails https://www.prisonphonejustice.org/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20i.... https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/dec/1/cost-communicating-prisoners-breaking-family-budgets-during-pandemic/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/dec/1/cost-communi...
        MikeUt 5y ago
        Oh, I meant why "real" pay isn't done - why they are paid a pittance.
        Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
        Like I said: >prisons get less heat if they can say they payprisoners for work Who cares how much they get paid? They're prisoners! /sarcasm
johannes1234321 5y ago
I don't know enough about the US system to comment on that. However in Germany a large part of prison work is around qualification. The inmates can learn a job and once released have a useable qualification for finding a job. Most prisons in that way are self supporting. Meaning food is made by inmates who are cooks or are learning to be a chef. Repairs for heating or doors or furniture are made by inmates etc. Only a small part of the work is for external customers and even a smaller part is for the prison's online Shop like https://www.haftsache.de/ https://www.haftsache.de/ And yes salaries are low, but they get free food and accomodation and aren't there for fun but punishment ...
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  Key difference the German approach is prep for reintegration into society, typical US prison work more seem to be menial jobs (fruit picker).
  - adolph 5y ago
    Are you saying that fruit picking is not an occupation integrated into society? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Farm_Workers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Farm_Workers
    - Jolter 5y ago
      No, they are saying that fruit picking is not a job that requires training or qualifications. So prison work picking fruit does not help prepare the inmate for life after release.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - adolph 5y ago
        Are you saying that people in prison lack training or qualifications? Picking fruit is a valid occupation and one that is not limited by post-incarceration rules like not being a stockbroker after committing securities fraud or not being a childcare worker after pedophilia. While many agriculture jobs provide on the job rather than classroom training, there are skills to be acquired that can enhance productivity and value.
AndyMcConachie 5y ago
If people think it's a good idea for prison inmates to work then they should at least pay them minimum wage and prisoners should be given an opportunity to not work if they so choose. I have no respect for someone who thinks forcing people to work as slaves is ok, and I will take the hardest stance possible on this. There is no wiggle room, there can be no compromise. Slavery is morally repugnant. Here you can buy some products made by American slaves. https://unicor.gov/SopAlphaList.aspx https://unicor.gov/SopAlphaList.aspx And here is an advert for slaves you can hire to run your call center. https://unicor.gov/ContactCenterVideo.aspx https://unicor.gov/ContactCenterVideo.aspx Bill and Hillary Clinton had house slaves in the Arkansas governors mansion. https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/06/the-clintons-had-slaves https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/06/the-clintons-had-slav... I understand this is common practice in many state governors' mansions to have house slaves.
ls-lah_33 5y ago
Not to mention that one of the largest maximum security prisons in the US is actually a repurposed antebellum plantation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Penitentiary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Penitentiary
RickJWagner 5y ago
I see it as business enabling this part of the rehabilitation. I lived for years a few miles from a federal penitentiary, I had friends who worked inside. The picture I have is that prison jobs are good and sought after by the inmates. (Versus eternal boredom.) It's better for the jobs to be meaningful than meaningless, as make-work projects would inevitably be. This is not a broken system, there are no credible politicians or officials calling for change.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Would you rather sit around, in a cage, in a caged courtyard, in a caged rec room, in a caged gym, or pick up trash on the side of the highway or dig a ditch. I know what I'd rather do. Forcing inmates to work under harsh and/or exploitative conditions is wrong but forcing them to do some sort of work for some portion of their time is not inherently wrong. The devil is in the details.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
  I'd rather die of starvation in protest than submit to slavery. The law be damned.
  - JoeAltmaier 5y ago
    Simple: stay out of prison.
    - quantum_solanum 5y ago
      Simple: be rich and white
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
      Are you being sarcastic?
  - omginternets 5y ago
    I suspect most of us feel the same way, but it seems like we might disagree on what constitutes slavery.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
      Unfairly compensated labor.
      - omginternets 5y ago
        That's not the common definition of slavery. Unfairly compensated labor is bad -- in this we agree -- but distinctions exist for a reason, and the surest way to appear unreasonable/extreme is to conflate them.
macspoofing 5y ago
>no one should be making money off of keeping people in cages. Prison guards should work for free? How about maintenance workers? How about contractors who build the prisons? Are they all incentivized to keep people in prisons? What if a government-run prison outsourced management of prison to an outside company - is that OK? I understand your sentiment, but I think private prisons is one of those non-issues that are blown way out of proportion (like the idea that somehow prisons are full of non-violent drug offenders). Nothing changes if you get rid of private prisons. I suspect you know that because your primary objection is philosophical rather than practical. You just don't like the 'idea' of them. >If we as a society have to do that, fine, but it's unconscionable that it be a profitable venture. Again ... WHY?! Vilifying profit as this great evil is a common trope among the internet intelligentsia. In each case though, the individual exempts their wage and savings (i.e. profit) from this rule.
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  These are all irrelevant gotchas but also not particularly insightful. >Prison guards should work for free? No, but their employment shouldn't be tied to how many prisoners there are. >How about maintenance workers? Ditto >How about contractors who build the prisons? Hopefully there aren't building companies that would lose out significantly if prisons stopped existing to the point that they'd be incentivized to get more people in prison. >Are they all incentivized to keep people in prisons? I'd hope not, but maybe they are, and if so that's awful. >What if a government-run prison outsourced management of prison to an outside company - is that OK? It would depend on how it's set up, but I think such things do exist and they're usually not much better than private prisons. What's the point of all of these irrelevant questions? Their answers don't affect what we should do about companies profiting off of prison labor, at all. They're irrelevant. >I understand your sentiment, but I think private prisons is one of those non-issues that are blown way out of proportion (like the idea that somehow prisons are full of non-violent drug offenders). Nothing changes if you get rid of private prisons. I suspect you know that because your primary objection is philosophical rather than practical. You just don't like the 'idea' of them. This point would be better made if you had any sources to back this up, at all. Like, I could theoretically try to rebut these points with sources, but then I'd have effectively gotten gish galloped. >Vilifying profit as this great evil is a common trope among the internet intelligentsia. Why are you so quick to defend profit? It's pretty clear to me that allowing companies to profit off of prisoners is a perverse incentive, and the only refutation of that fact you can give is a bunch of irrelevant points, unsourced waxing lyrical about private prisons, and then blandly pointing to "oh you always hate profit". Do you own a prison? Why are you so invested in defending them?
eplanit 5y ago
Are prisoners forced to work against their will for no compensation? I think not, and therefore "slavery" is hyperbole. I used to work with mentally retarded people. They had a jobs program where they contracted with companies for small jobs that these folks could do. TI teamed up with the school, and together they set up a "workshop" where they would fold up power cords and tie with twists. The people were paid like a dollar per day... they worked a couple of hours per day. It was beneficial for all (TI indeed sold those cords with its products), and hardly slavery. It was hailed at time for all its good. That was not a prison, but it served a similar purpose. Not a single complaint of slavery or exploitation was ever raised... but this was in the 1980s.
- danShumway 5y ago
  Were those people barred from multiple forms of unemployment after they graduated from your program? The "prison work preps people for normal life" argument is just absurd to me, I don't see any long-term training or rehabilitation benefits to making license plates. If you want to talk about reintegrating prisoners into society, then clear prisoner's records after they leave prison and bar employers from asking about prior convictions. Otherwise, I don't buy that we're doing this out of concern for the prisoner. Also, to be clear: > Prisoners at Angola can be legally forced to work once cleared by a medical doctor, and most are required to perform field work, like harvesting soybeans and corn for at least 90 days upon arrival. For long hours in the hot sun, they earn as little as 4 cents per hour. So yeah, that sounds a lot like slavery to me. What's hyperbolic about that? 4 cents an hour is not compensation. By your logic, the South wasn't practicing slavery either since plantation owners gave their slaves "free" room and board. From the Appeal's coverage of the same prison (https://theappeal.org/louisiana-prisoners-demand-an-end-to-modern-day-slavery/ https://theappeal.org/louisiana-prisoners-demand-an-end-to-m...): > Once cleared by a prison doctor, prisoners at Angola can be legally forced to work under threat of severe punishment, including solitary confinement. Even prisoners with physical impediments may still have to work. “Angola frequently fails to accommodate men with disabilities—often forcing them to work in dangerous factories or in the fields,” said Mercedes Montagnes, executive director of the Promise of Justice Initiative.
- batch12 5y ago
brilliantbro 5y ago
This would be a significantly less of an issue if victimless crimes weren't crimes. Murderers need an incentive not to murder, labor can be that incentive. I feel bad for the majority of the prison population.
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
I don't know, prison is about something. It's not about treating prisoners as law-abiding rights-bearing citizens with the highest level of social leverage. At what point should prisoners do something, anything, to mitigate what damage they've done to the rest of us? Is planting potatoes in the hot sun in Texas too much to ask? Regular law-abiding folks do it after all. And note: when folks have to plant potatoes in the hot sun as part of prison, recidivism is very low. For whatever reason, though I'd guess that petty criminals are essentially lazy and having to work a real job is more than they want to do. It changes their outlook, when prison work outweighs the benefit of petty theft etc. There's a moral dimension (who are we to judge etc) and a political one (out-of-control profiteering). But fundamentally, making prisoners work is not a bad thing.
- michaelt 5y ago
  > Regular law-abiding folks do it after all. Prostitution is legal in my country, but it'd be mad unethical to force someone into prostitution against their will.
  - JoeAltmaier 5y ago
    Hey, I meant potato farming. Regular people do it voluntarily. Its not even all that onerous, just hard work. Don't know where that 'prostitution' bit was supposed to be going.
    - michaelt 5y ago
      The fact some people will do something voluntarily doesn't mean it's ethical to force other people to do it against their will. Therefore, it's irrelevant whether "regular people do it voluntarily" - because it's the being forced against their will that's the ethical issue here. One illustrative example of this maxim is prostitution.
      - JoeAltmaier 5y ago
        But isn't that deliberately ignoring the fact we're talking about prisoners? Not citizens with full rights? So 'making them do something' is the entire point of the exercise. Its not advancing the topic to exclaim breathlessly about loss of rights, when that's the point of prison. We could be talking about misaligned incentives or effectiveness etc.
Taylor_OD 5y ago
Having the ability to earn a wage while in prison is a great idea. Paying those people at least minimum wage instead of pennies is a great idea.
- stronglikedan 5y ago
  > Paying those people at least minimum wage instead of pennies is a great idea. Yes, as long as a reasonable amount for food and housing is deducted from their paycheck.
  - danShumway 5y ago
    I don't know if you're making a serious suggestion or not, but prisoners are already forced to pay for a lot of the resources they get in prisons, including basic services like video calls and extra medical supplies. And they pay exorbitantly higher prices than people outside of prison. Outside of prison, a video call with your family is free because you use Skype or Zoom. Inside of prison, a 30 minute call can have a double digit price tag. Even basic necessities like menstrual products and tampons for women often have to be purchased at prices far above what normal consumers pay. There's no competition or prisoner autonomy over which businesses they give their money to, and there's no commercial incentive for businesses that are authorized to sell to prisoners to lower prices; they literally have a captive market. State-approved monopolies are allowed to restrict access to those supplies and "privileges" unless prisoners pay up. This has also led to really perverse policy incentives. Video call companies have lobbied states to restrict and/or remove in-person visiting, meaning that if you want to have any contact with your family or the outside world, you need to pay for the privilege. Often, books and entertainment will have a single company you can purchase through. Prisoners don't get access to the free market and even completely noncontroversial, obviously positive rehabilitative measures like family visits are being restricted for the sake of monetary exploitation. So short answer, we're not giving prisoners a minimum wage and we're already charging them and their families an artificially inflated amount of money for basic necessities.
    - stronglikedan 5y ago
samstave 5y ago
Do you eat garlic? Specifically peeled garlic? Slaves in China peel that garlic, and the garlic is grown in california and shipped to china for slaves to peel it all, and they lose their fingernails due to how much garlic they need to peel. I love garlic, but on par with the fucking Sackler family of Oxycontin, The garlic ranches of Gilroy are fucking despicable.
- Jolter 5y ago
  It boggles my mind that apparently consumers are not willing to peel their own garlic. What’s next, peeled apples in shrink-wrap?
- aerostable_slug 5y ago
  Garlic ranches of Fresno, you mean. The Gilroy thing was largely invented to draw tourists — Fresno is where the bulk is grown, ex. Fresno County grew 25,060 acres of garlic in 2017. Santa Clara County grew 761 acres. About 90% of California's garlic crop is from Fresno. Gilroy has the festival and a couple of processing plants.
- roflc0ptic 5y ago
  Hahahaha, that’s funny in a terrible way. Yes, I recently discovered peeled garlic, and thought to myself, “man; I love not peeling garlic. I wonder what industrial process they use to make this work at scale.” Apparently the answer is slavery? Gonna Google that and confirm, but I guess this means I’m back to peeling my own garlic.
wolverine876 5y ago
> It's utterly wild how there are people in the comments saying "maybe slave labor is actually good for the slaves." > I don't even necessarily disagree with that possibility - sure, work provides meaning in life, it's better than sitting in a cage. If it's better, then why don't they let the people decide for themselves whether they want to work for free? My guess is that they wouldn't get many takers. Also, exploiting people by giving them a choice between slave labor an worse options doesn't count. Fundamentally, who are some HN commenters to decide for others what's 'good' for them? The 'maybe slavery is a good idea' stance is one I've seen around Internet forums, a trendy pseudo-intellectual provocation that is transparently absurd. Those who are serious are encouraged to volunteer first for slavery and show us how good it is, or for something much less onerous - free hard labor. It strikes me that people value their freedom and self-determination, not to mention their energy and time, and nobody is a slave voluntarily.

LightG 5y ago

HN should introduce a "super-golden-upvote" which everyone is allowed to use once a year. This post would earn that.

sampo 5y ago

> It's utterly wild how there are people in the comments saying "maybe slave labor is actually good for the slaves." There are many countries that treat their prisoners as prisoners, not as slaves. Maybe prison work can be good in those countries? Just not in yours. There are many articles on how Norway is one of the best countries in rehabilitating prisoners, and in Norwegian prisons prisoners do work. I'd guess that prisoners work in all the countries that are among the world top in rehabilitation.

omginternets 5y ago
Agreed. As usual, the debate in the US conflates several distinct issues, using a strangely deformed "fruit of the poisoned tree" logic. Here, the logic goes something like, "US prisons mistreat prisoners, therefore prison labor constitutes mistreatment". Mistreatment of prisoners through labor is an accidental property, not an essential one (as evidenced by countries like Norway).

dalbasal 5y ago

I sympathize with a lot of this, and we'd probably agree at the practical level. As a matter of principle though... the principle is violated inevitably. A prison guard "profits" (or rather, makes a living by) imprisonment. Any company supplying a prison profits. Community service is forced labour, etc. That said, I totally agree on incentives. It's dangerous, especially private prisons. The pay rate does bother me... I can see why real pay isn't done, but just paying pennies per hour does not sit well. Maybe a 3rd party should get the money, and this could take on a restorative rather than punitive aspect. There might even be a case for demonetize prison labour, supply the food directly to food banks instead of for market. The phrase, "debt to society" is used often. Debts are not redeemed by suffering, generally.

MikeUt 5y ago
> The pay rate does bother me... I can see why real pay isn't done Is there a reason other than "because they can get away with it"?
- dalbasal 5y ago
  A reason why its done, or why it bothers me?
  - MikeUt 5y ago
    Why it's done.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
      Prisoners need cash for commissary and prisons get less heat if they can say they payprisoners for work. Just don't look into how much prison shit costs. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/commissary.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/commissary.html https://www.prisonerresource.com/interview/how-much-money-should-i-send-my-incarcerated-loved-one-an-interview-with-prison-expert-christopher-zoukis/ https://www.prisonerresource.com/interview/how-much-money-sh... https://www.prisonphonejustice.org/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20interstate%20(long%20distance),high%20rates%20at%20county%20jails https://www.prisonphonejustice.org/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20i.... https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/dec/1/cost-communicating-prisoners-breaking-family-budgets-during-pandemic/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2020/dec/1/cost-communi...
      - MikeUt 5y ago
        Oh, I meant why "real" pay isn't done - why they are paid a pittance.
        Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
        Like I said: >prisons get less heat if they can say they payprisoners for work Who cares how much they get paid? They're prisoners! /sarcasm

johannes1234321 5y ago

I don't know enough about the US system to comment on that. However in Germany a large part of prison work is around qualification. The inmates can learn a job and once released have a useable qualification for finding a job. Most prisons in that way are self supporting. Meaning food is made by inmates who are cooks or are learning to be a chef. Repairs for heating or doors or furniture are made by inmates etc. Only a small part of the work is for external customers and even a smaller part is for the prison's online Shop like https://www.haftsache.de/ https://www.haftsache.de/ And yes salaries are low, but they get free food and accomodation and aren't there for fun but punishment ...

estaseuropano 5y ago
Key difference the German approach is prep for reintegration into society, typical US prison work more seem to be menial jobs (fruit picker).
- adolph 5y ago
  Are you saying that fruit picking is not an occupation integrated into society? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Farm_Workers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Farm_Workers
  - Jolter 5y ago
    No, they are saying that fruit picking is not a job that requires training or qualifications. So prison work picking fruit does not help prepare the inmate for life after release.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - adolph 5y ago
      Are you saying that people in prison lack training or qualifications? Picking fruit is a valid occupation and one that is not limited by post-incarceration rules like not being a stockbroker after committing securities fraud or not being a childcare worker after pedophilia. While many agriculture jobs provide on the job rather than classroom training, there are skills to be acquired that can enhance productivity and value.

AndyMcConachie 5y ago

If people think it's a good idea for prison inmates to work then they should at least pay them minimum wage and prisoners should be given an opportunity to not work if they so choose. I have no respect for someone who thinks forcing people to work as slaves is ok, and I will take the hardest stance possible on this. There is no wiggle room, there can be no compromise. Slavery is morally repugnant. Here you can buy some products made by American slaves. https://unicor.gov/SopAlphaList.aspx https://unicor.gov/SopAlphaList.aspx And here is an advert for slaves you can hire to run your call center. https://unicor.gov/ContactCenterVideo.aspx https://unicor.gov/ContactCenterVideo.aspx Bill and Hillary Clinton had house slaves in the Arkansas governors mansion. https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/06/the-clintons-had-slaves https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/06/the-clintons-had-slav... I understand this is common practice in many state governors' mansions to have house slaves.

ls-lah_33 5y ago

Not to mention that one of the largest maximum security prisons in the US is actually a repurposed antebellum plantation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Penitentiary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Penitentiary

RickJWagner 5y ago

I see it as business enabling this part of the rehabilitation. I lived for years a few miles from a federal penitentiary, I had friends who worked inside. The picture I have is that prison jobs are good and sought after by the inmates. (Versus eternal boredom.) It's better for the jobs to be meaningful than meaningless, as make-work projects would inevitably be. This is not a broken system, there are no credible politicians or officials calling for change.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

Would you rather sit around, in a cage, in a caged courtyard, in a caged rec room, in a caged gym, or pick up trash on the side of the highway or dig a ditch. I know what I'd rather do. Forcing inmates to work under harsh and/or exploitative conditions is wrong but forcing them to do some sort of work for some portion of their time is not inherently wrong. The devil is in the details.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
I'd rather die of starvation in protest than submit to slavery. The law be damned.
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  Simple: stay out of prison.
  - quantum_solanum 5y ago
    Simple: be rich and white
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
    Are you being sarcastic?
- omginternets 5y ago
  I suspect most of us feel the same way, but it seems like we might disagree on what constitutes slavery.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
    Unfairly compensated labor.
    - omginternets 5y ago
      That's not the common definition of slavery. Unfairly compensated labor is bad -- in this we agree -- but distinctions exist for a reason, and the surest way to appear unreasonable/extreme is to conflate them.

macspoofing 5y ago

>no one should be making money off of keeping people in cages. Prison guards should work for free? How about maintenance workers? How about contractors who build the prisons? Are they all incentivized to keep people in prisons? What if a government-run prison outsourced management of prison to an outside company - is that OK? I understand your sentiment, but I think private prisons is one of those non-issues that are blown way out of proportion (like the idea that somehow prisons are full of non-violent drug offenders). Nothing changes if you get rid of private prisons. I suspect you know that because your primary objection is philosophical rather than practical. You just don't like the 'idea' of them. >If we as a society have to do that, fine, but it's unconscionable that it be a profitable venture. Again ... WHY?! Vilifying profit as this great evil is a common trope among the internet intelligentsia. In each case though, the individual exempts their wage and savings (i.e. profit) from this rule.

TchoBeer 5y ago
These are all irrelevant gotchas but also not particularly insightful. >Prison guards should work for free? No, but their employment shouldn't be tied to how many prisoners there are. >How about maintenance workers? Ditto >How about contractors who build the prisons? Hopefully there aren't building companies that would lose out significantly if prisons stopped existing to the point that they'd be incentivized to get more people in prison. >Are they all incentivized to keep people in prisons? I'd hope not, but maybe they are, and if so that's awful. >What if a government-run prison outsourced management of prison to an outside company - is that OK? It would depend on how it's set up, but I think such things do exist and they're usually not much better than private prisons. What's the point of all of these irrelevant questions? Their answers don't affect what we should do about companies profiting off of prison labor, at all. They're irrelevant. >I understand your sentiment, but I think private prisons is one of those non-issues that are blown way out of proportion (like the idea that somehow prisons are full of non-violent drug offenders). Nothing changes if you get rid of private prisons. I suspect you know that because your primary objection is philosophical rather than practical. You just don't like the 'idea' of them. This point would be better made if you had any sources to back this up, at all. Like, I could theoretically try to rebut these points with sources, but then I'd have effectively gotten gish galloped. >Vilifying profit as this great evil is a common trope among the internet intelligentsia. Why are you so quick to defend profit? It's pretty clear to me that allowing companies to profit off of prisoners is a perverse incentive, and the only refutation of that fact you can give is a bunch of irrelevant points, unsourced waxing lyrical about private prisons, and then blandly pointing to "oh you always hate profit". Do you own a prison? Why are you so invested in defending them?

eplanit 5y ago

Are prisoners forced to work against their will for no compensation? I think not, and therefore "slavery" is hyperbole. I used to work with mentally retarded people. They had a jobs program where they contracted with companies for small jobs that these folks could do. TI teamed up with the school, and together they set up a "workshop" where they would fold up power cords and tie with twists. The people were paid like a dollar per day... they worked a couple of hours per day. It was beneficial for all (TI indeed sold those cords with its products), and hardly slavery. It was hailed at time for all its good. That was not a prison, but it served a similar purpose. Not a single complaint of slavery or exploitation was ever raised... but this was in the 1980s.

danShumway 5y ago
Were those people barred from multiple forms of unemployment after they graduated from your program? The "prison work preps people for normal life" argument is just absurd to me, I don't see any long-term training or rehabilitation benefits to making license plates. If you want to talk about reintegrating prisoners into society, then clear prisoner's records after they leave prison and bar employers from asking about prior convictions. Otherwise, I don't buy that we're doing this out of concern for the prisoner. Also, to be clear: > Prisoners at Angola can be legally forced to work once cleared by a medical doctor, and most are required to perform field work, like harvesting soybeans and corn for at least 90 days upon arrival. For long hours in the hot sun, they earn as little as 4 cents per hour. So yeah, that sounds a lot like slavery to me. What's hyperbolic about that? 4 cents an hour is not compensation. By your logic, the South wasn't practicing slavery either since plantation owners gave their slaves "free" room and board. From the Appeal's coverage of the same prison (https://theappeal.org/louisiana-prisoners-demand-an-end-to-modern-day-slavery/ https://theappeal.org/louisiana-prisoners-demand-an-end-to-m...): > Once cleared by a prison doctor, prisoners at Angola can be legally forced to work under threat of severe punishment, including solitary confinement. Even prisoners with physical impediments may still have to work. “Angola frequently fails to accommodate men with disabilities—often forcing them to work in dangerous factories or in the fields,” said Mercedes Montagnes, executive director of the Promise of Justice Initiative.
batch12 5y ago

brilliantbro 5y ago

This would be a significantly less of an issue if victimless crimes weren't crimes. Murderers need an incentive not to murder, labor can be that incentive. I feel bad for the majority of the prison population.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago

I don't know, prison is about something. It's not about treating prisoners as law-abiding rights-bearing citizens with the highest level of social leverage. At what point should prisoners do something, anything, to mitigate what damage they've done to the rest of us? Is planting potatoes in the hot sun in Texas too much to ask? Regular law-abiding folks do it after all. And note: when folks have to plant potatoes in the hot sun as part of prison, recidivism is very low. For whatever reason, though I'd guess that petty criminals are essentially lazy and having to work a real job is more than they want to do. It changes their outlook, when prison work outweighs the benefit of petty theft etc. There's a moral dimension (who are we to judge etc) and a political one (out-of-control profiteering). But fundamentally, making prisoners work is not a bad thing.

michaelt 5y ago
> Regular law-abiding folks do it after all. Prostitution is legal in my country, but it'd be mad unethical to force someone into prostitution against their will.
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  Hey, I meant potato farming. Regular people do it voluntarily. Its not even all that onerous, just hard work. Don't know where that 'prostitution' bit was supposed to be going.
  - michaelt 5y ago
    The fact some people will do something voluntarily doesn't mean it's ethical to force other people to do it against their will. Therefore, it's irrelevant whether "regular people do it voluntarily" - because it's the being forced against their will that's the ethical issue here. One illustrative example of this maxim is prostitution.
    - JoeAltmaier 5y ago
      But isn't that deliberately ignoring the fact we're talking about prisoners? Not citizens with full rights? So 'making them do something' is the entire point of the exercise. Its not advancing the topic to exclaim breathlessly about loss of rights, when that's the point of prison. We could be talking about misaligned incentives or effectiveness etc.

Taylor_OD 5y ago

Having the ability to earn a wage while in prison is a great idea. Paying those people at least minimum wage instead of pennies is a great idea.

stronglikedan 5y ago
> Paying those people at least minimum wage instead of pennies is a great idea. Yes, as long as a reasonable amount for food and housing is deducted from their paycheck.
- danShumway 5y ago
  I don't know if you're making a serious suggestion or not, but prisoners are already forced to pay for a lot of the resources they get in prisons, including basic services like video calls and extra medical supplies. And they pay exorbitantly higher prices than people outside of prison. Outside of prison, a video call with your family is free because you use Skype or Zoom. Inside of prison, a 30 minute call can have a double digit price tag. Even basic necessities like menstrual products and tampons for women often have to be purchased at prices far above what normal consumers pay. There's no competition or prisoner autonomy over which businesses they give their money to, and there's no commercial incentive for businesses that are authorized to sell to prisoners to lower prices; they literally have a captive market. State-approved monopolies are allowed to restrict access to those supplies and "privileges" unless prisoners pay up. This has also led to really perverse policy incentives. Video call companies have lobbied states to restrict and/or remove in-person visiting, meaning that if you want to have any contact with your family or the outside world, you need to pay for the privilege. Often, books and entertainment will have a single company you can purchase through. Prisoners don't get access to the free market and even completely noncontroversial, obviously positive rehabilitative measures like family visits are being restricted for the sake of monetary exploitation. So short answer, we're not giving prisoners a minimum wage and we're already charging them and their families an artificially inflated amount of money for basic necessities.
  - stronglikedan 5y ago

samstave 5y ago

Do you eat garlic? Specifically peeled garlic? Slaves in China peel that garlic, and the garlic is grown in california and shipped to china for slaves to peel it all, and they lose their fingernails due to how much garlic they need to peel. I love garlic, but on par with the fucking Sackler family of Oxycontin, The garlic ranches of Gilroy are fucking despicable.

Jolter 5y ago
It boggles my mind that apparently consumers are not willing to peel their own garlic. What’s next, peeled apples in shrink-wrap?
aerostable_slug 5y ago
Garlic ranches of Fresno, you mean. The Gilroy thing was largely invented to draw tourists — Fresno is where the bulk is grown, ex. Fresno County grew 25,060 acres of garlic in 2017. Santa Clara County grew 761 acres. About 90% of California's garlic crop is from Fresno. Gilroy has the festival and a couple of processing plants.
roflc0ptic 5y ago
Hahahaha, that’s funny in a terrible way. Yes, I recently discovered peeled garlic, and thought to myself, “man; I love not peeling garlic. I wonder what industrial process they use to make this work at scale.” Apparently the answer is slavery? Gonna Google that and confirm, but I guess this means I’m back to peeling my own garlic.

wolverine876 5y ago

> It's utterly wild how there are people in the comments saying "maybe slave labor is actually good for the slaves." > I don't even necessarily disagree with that possibility - sure, work provides meaning in life, it's better than sitting in a cage. If it's better, then why don't they let the people decide for themselves whether they want to work for free? My guess is that they wouldn't get many takers. Also, exploiting people by giving them a choice between slave labor an worse options doesn't count. Fundamentally, who are some HN commenters to decide for others what's 'good' for them? The 'maybe slavery is a good idea' stance is one I've seen around Internet forums, a trendy pseudo-intellectual provocation that is transparently absurd. Those who are serious are encouraged to volunteer first for slavery and show us how good it is, or for something much less onerous - free hard labor. It strikes me that people value their freedom and self-determination, not to mention their energy and time, and nobody is a slave voluntarily.