6 ms·

Funny how everyone complains it's wasteful yet I see absolutely nobody complaining that they have some sort of electricity shortage because of Bitcoin miners.

Valgrim 5y ago
The issue is not scarcity, it's pollution.
- drdeca 5y ago
  In a sense, we could say “lack of CO2 in the atmosphere” is the scarce resource which is being depleted. ( Maybe kind of like how you can think of something which can burn by absorbing oxygen, as releasing phlogiston (which is just a lack of oxygen, in a certain sense)? )
Rogach 5y ago
Well, here's a datapoint for you: I've witnessed firsthand how a big miner farm resulted in full blackout in a small-ish city (~100k population).
drew-y 5y ago
Because shortages aren't the issue. The issue is using more power than all of Argentina for one currency. That is a lot of CO2 emissions for something that brings questionable value.
- jollybean 5y ago
  "The issue is using more power than all of Argentina for one currency. " It's using the power of Argentina for an MLM/Ponzi scheme that doesn't apparently create any value. If it were a) broadly useful and b) used less power it would be another story. 'Cruise ships' at least allow people to 'cruise'.
  - atweiden 5y ago
    Why is it “not useful” to opt out of the inflationary issuance of major government currencies?
    - trainsplanes 5y ago
      You’re not opting out of anything. At the end of the day, everyone is trading their crypto for dollars or another government currency. Crypto is opting out of real money is the same way buying an unstable stock is. People are buying it hoping to get rich and convincing others to do the same, hoping they’ll sell it off before the price crashes and it’s completely worthless. Nobody is buying milk and eggs with GameStop stocks or *coins, and if they did, it’d make international news and that singular event would be referenced for 5 years by supporters as an example of how “real” their currency is.
      - atweiden 5y ago
        > Crypto is opting out of real money is the same way buying an unstable stock is Cryptocurrencies are indeed traded like meme stocks — their value is 100% based on narrative. The difference is meme stocks can’t be electronically transacted sans trusted third parties, which if you recall from the 2009 Satoshi paper, is the entire point of Bitcoin. (There are other benefits to having a global currency of fixed supply controlled by computer algorithms, e.g. transparent supply metrics.) > hoping they’ll sell it off before the price crashes and it’s completely worthless What are the holders of Bitcoin supposed to sell it for, exactly? USD is being inflated. The stock market is insane. Housing is insane and comes with tax and maintenance liabilities virtually everywhere. Artwork is physical and illiquid. Government debt is increasingly dubious. It would take governments becoming fiscally responsible and a return to a gold standard for Bitcoin to become less societally relevant. And even then, gold and gold-backed government monies would suffer from transparency issues and not being able to be electronically transacted sans trusted third parties. I’m afraid there’s really just no good news here for people who refuse to invest in Bitcoin on general principle.
        5y ago
caconym_ 5y ago
Cruise ships are hideously wasteful, but I don't see anybody complaining that they have some sort of gas shortage because of cruise ships specifically. Gas prices are what they are, and consumers complain in very general terms because they don't have good visibility into the global oil markets. For all I know off the top of my head (where this comment is coming from), cruise ships aren't a significant driver of oil prices. I'd expect the scale of the shipping market to dwarf their effect, and I'd expect production to rise to meet their relatively steady demand, though I could be wrong about either or both. None of that (whatever the answers may be) means they aren't hideously wasteful in absolute and very meaningful terms.
- Spivak 5y ago
  I mean on HN you really do see a very anti-cruise ship sentiment whenever the topic comes up. They are really really wasteful and worse than commercial ships since they pollute the very water people want to visit for its beauty. I wouldn’t really be all that upset to see them banned but there’s no momentum for it. Crypto just happens to be really visible to a lot of people who see no personal benefit for its existence.
  - caconym_ 5y ago
    > I mean on HN you really do see a very anti-cruise ship sentiment whenever the topic comes up. For sure, and in other contexts too, but I don’t think the issue of not being able to buy gas because cruise ships exist comes up often (mostly because AFAICT it’s not real). And that’s really my point: it’s perfectly valid to complain about cruise ships being wasteful without being able to point to some incredibly obvious consumer-facing manifestation of that waste, because them being wasteful (they are, obviously) isn’t predicated on any such manifestation. Despite the vast scale of their waste, they’re a drop in the bucket that is the global economy.
kelnos 5y ago
I don't know what (if any) effect Bitcoin mining has had on electricity prices, but we do have a GPU shortage because of Bitcoin miners. It's a bit ridiculous when regular stores have lotteries to grant you the privilege of purchasing one of a scarce number of GPUs... at regular retail price.
- roskelld 5y ago
  Bitcoin doesn't use GPUs for mining. Bitcoin mining is performed with custom ASIC hardware. GPUs cannot compete as they're not built for purpose.
skohan 5y ago
The problem is with negative externalities.
Barrin92 5y ago
Then you're probably not from Iran because crypto miners have routinely sparked power outages there. https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20210203-in-iran-power-outages-reveal-the-secret-business-of-chinese-bitcoin-farms https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20210203-in-ir...
imtringued 5y ago
It's going to happen eventually.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Valgrim 5y ago

The issue is not scarcity, it's pollution.

drdeca 5y ago
In a sense, we could say “lack of CO2 in the atmosphere” is the scarce resource which is being depleted. ( Maybe kind of like how you can think of something which can burn by absorbing oxygen, as releasing phlogiston (which is just a lack of oxygen, in a certain sense)? )

Rogach 5y ago

Well, here's a datapoint for you: I've witnessed firsthand how a big miner farm resulted in full blackout in a small-ish city (~100k population).

drew-y 5y ago

Because shortages aren't the issue. The issue is using more power than all of Argentina for one currency. That is a lot of CO2 emissions for something that brings questionable value.

jollybean 5y ago
"The issue is using more power than all of Argentina for one currency. " It's using the power of Argentina for an MLM/Ponzi scheme that doesn't apparently create any value. If it were a) broadly useful and b) used less power it would be another story. 'Cruise ships' at least allow people to 'cruise'.
- atweiden 5y ago
  Why is it “not useful” to opt out of the inflationary issuance of major government currencies?
  - trainsplanes 5y ago
    You’re not opting out of anything. At the end of the day, everyone is trading their crypto for dollars or another government currency. Crypto is opting out of real money is the same way buying an unstable stock is. People are buying it hoping to get rich and convincing others to do the same, hoping they’ll sell it off before the price crashes and it’s completely worthless. Nobody is buying milk and eggs with GameStop stocks or *coins, and if they did, it’d make international news and that singular event would be referenced for 5 years by supporters as an example of how “real” their currency is.
    - atweiden 5y ago
      > Crypto is opting out of real money is the same way buying an unstable stock is Cryptocurrencies are indeed traded like meme stocks — their value is 100% based on narrative. The difference is meme stocks can’t be electronically transacted sans trusted third parties, which if you recall from the 2009 Satoshi paper, is the entire point of Bitcoin. (There are other benefits to having a global currency of fixed supply controlled by computer algorithms, e.g. transparent supply metrics.) > hoping they’ll sell it off before the price crashes and it’s completely worthless What are the holders of Bitcoin supposed to sell it for, exactly? USD is being inflated. The stock market is insane. Housing is insane and comes with tax and maintenance liabilities virtually everywhere. Artwork is physical and illiquid. Government debt is increasingly dubious. It would take governments becoming fiscally responsible and a return to a gold standard for Bitcoin to become less societally relevant. And even then, gold and gold-backed government monies would suffer from transparency issues and not being able to be electronically transacted sans trusted third parties. I’m afraid there’s really just no good news here for people who refuse to invest in Bitcoin on general principle.
      - 5y ago

caconym_ 5y ago

Cruise ships are hideously wasteful, but I don't see anybody complaining that they have some sort of gas shortage because of cruise ships specifically. Gas prices are what they are, and consumers complain in very general terms because they don't have good visibility into the global oil markets. For all I know off the top of my head (where this comment is coming from), cruise ships aren't a significant driver of oil prices. I'd expect the scale of the shipping market to dwarf their effect, and I'd expect production to rise to meet their relatively steady demand, though I could be wrong about either or both. None of that (whatever the answers may be) means they aren't hideously wasteful in absolute and very meaningful terms.

Spivak 5y ago
I mean on HN you really do see a very anti-cruise ship sentiment whenever the topic comes up. They are really really wasteful and worse than commercial ships since they pollute the very water people want to visit for its beauty. I wouldn’t really be all that upset to see them banned but there’s no momentum for it. Crypto just happens to be really visible to a lot of people who see no personal benefit for its existence.
- caconym_ 5y ago
  > I mean on HN you really do see a very anti-cruise ship sentiment whenever the topic comes up. For sure, and in other contexts too, but I don’t think the issue of not being able to buy gas because cruise ships exist comes up often (mostly because AFAICT it’s not real). And that’s really my point: it’s perfectly valid to complain about cruise ships being wasteful without being able to point to some incredibly obvious consumer-facing manifestation of that waste, because them being wasteful (they are, obviously) isn’t predicated on any such manifestation. Despite the vast scale of their waste, they’re a drop in the bucket that is the global economy.

kelnos 5y ago

I don't know what (if any) effect Bitcoin mining has had on electricity prices, but we do have a GPU shortage because of Bitcoin miners. It's a bit ridiculous when regular stores have lotteries to grant you the privilege of purchasing one of a scarce number of GPUs... at regular retail price.

roskelld 5y ago
Bitcoin doesn't use GPUs for mining. Bitcoin mining is performed with custom ASIC hardware. GPUs cannot compete as they're not built for purpose.

skohan 5y ago

The problem is with negative externalities.

Barrin92 5y ago

Then you're probably not from Iran because crypto miners have routinely sparked power outages there. https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20210203-in-iran-power-outages-reveal-the-secret-business-of-chinese-bitcoin-farms https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20210203-in-ir...

imtringued 5y ago

It's going to happen eventually.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]