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And look at all the support for banning cryptocurrencies we see. The one way to sidestep the insanity of the modern financial system all of a sudden has massive

And look at all the support for banning cryptocurrencies we see. The one way to sidestep the insanity of the modern financial system all of a sudden has massive support to shut it down. Arguing that to save poor people from CO2 we must perpetuate financial systems which impoverish them forever. Wonder how hard it was to get people to fixate on cryptocurrency's energy usage vs youtube's, instagrams, or netflix's?

Fauntleroy 5y ago
And how exactly will cryptocurrency benefit those impoverished by the current system? As is it stands, the only way to reap any benefits is to become an early investor, or to have the capital on hand to purchase the computing resources necessary to "mine" them.
- ucha 5y ago
  My company has remote employees in a 3rd world country who prefer to be paid in crypto rather than on their bank account. Resident nationals are prohibited from owning foreign bank accounts. The value of freely convertible currency is 80% overstated by their central bank. If I pay them in the local currency, they lose 45% of the value of their labor to a corrupt government.
  - CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
    > they lose 45% of the value of their labor to a corrupt government That sounds like income taxes. :)
    - merpnderp 5y ago
      Taxes - inflation, potato - potato.
    - lazide 5y ago
      At least you get a receipt when you pay your taxes I guess? One challenge with inflation is how hard it is to measure and how it impacts different parts of the economy differently. If you’re buying chickens, it might be impacting you 20% or 100%, houses the same range but differently, etc. taxes at least are usually published and more knowable/can be planned around.
    - ucha 5y ago
      I'd say more like a tariff, because you pay a 80% tax when you buy foreign goods (or pay an 80% tax when a foreigner sells good to locals).
tomtheelder 5y ago
The idea that crypto would be a boon for the lower classes seems to me to be extremely dubious. Probably my single biggest concern about crypto is how much power it would shift away from governments and into the hands of the wealthy.
- CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
  > "that crypto would be a boon for the lower classes seems to me to be extremely dubious" Why? The lower classes are the most vulnerable to inflation. And even the poorest have cell phones these days. See TXT-banking in Africa. Or this example with Bitcoin: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tatianakoffman/2020/07/14/this-el-salvador-village-adopts-bitcoin-as-money https://www.forbes.com/sites/tatianakoffman/2020/07/14/this-... > "it would shift [power] away from governments and into the hands of the wealthy" You repeat yourself. ;) There are certainly risks - 51% attacks, etc. I don't know if crypto is the whole answer or maybe part of it, but when you consider how much the current financial systems are controlled and rigged, it's hard for me to see crypto as not an improvement for the common people.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    >The lower classes are the most vulnerable to inflation. The lower classes spend most of their income and accumulate very little savings and even if they do, those savings will not generate enough returns to replace their job, if the latter were possible they would not be lower classes by definition. Really there is only one benefit that Bitcoin brings and that is the ability to "strike" and force central banks to set interest rates properly e.g. the threat of competition keeps everyone honest. Also, Bitcoin is going down very quickly. Considering the recent rise in inflation I wouldn't want to hold onto Bitcoin if my goal was to get ahead of inflation. The volatility completely drowns out inflation. You may have to hold onto your Bitcoin for years and hope for a recovery.
- merpnderp 5y ago
  Is that why it is such a huge hit in Venezuela and other high inflation countries? Because poor people are playing into the hands of the powerful and not because it gives them a stable way to store wealth and trade with people in other countries? Sorry for my tone, but it rubs me raw when people casually discount the plight of the poor with do-gooder polices that make people's lives even harder, all while ignoring actual evidence.
jollybean 5y ago
The notion that these anti-money laundering schemes and otherwise regular financial transactions are 'oppressive' is not only false, it's upside down. 'Poverty' is a system without trust, justice or regulatory oversight - that is a system of 'power by thuggery'. The reason Singapore and Hong Kong flourished is because they had objective commercial law, you could put your money in a bank and know it wasn't going to be stolen. You could make business claims against others in court, instead of having to hire gunboats. A rigorous financial system is a foundation of civility, not an oppression. If we want to 'improve' we can look at remove VISA/MC monopolies, platform monopolies (Apple etc.), and of course reduce fictionalization of the economy by the Fed ... ... but good luck with the later, as those receiving a 'tiny bit of free money' from the government have difficulty realizing that they are actually being duped by the fact that everyone higher than them on the ladder is getting 'even more free money from the government' and that their ostensibly handouts are going to get more than eaten up by inflation of various kinds. There is no magical solution to our problems, we need to more pragmatic and intelligent - there's nothing in the domain of crypto that's fundamentally going to change the equation other than as minor tool in support of something more broad and pragmatic.

Fauntleroy 5y ago

And how exactly will cryptocurrency benefit those impoverished by the current system? As is it stands, the only way to reap any benefits is to become an early investor, or to have the capital on hand to purchase the computing resources necessary to "mine" them.

ucha 5y ago
My company has remote employees in a 3rd world country who prefer to be paid in crypto rather than on their bank account. Resident nationals are prohibited from owning foreign bank accounts. The value of freely convertible currency is 80% overstated by their central bank. If I pay them in the local currency, they lose 45% of the value of their labor to a corrupt government.
- CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
  > they lose 45% of the value of their labor to a corrupt government That sounds like income taxes. :)
  - merpnderp 5y ago
    Taxes - inflation, potato - potato.
  - lazide 5y ago
    At least you get a receipt when you pay your taxes I guess? One challenge with inflation is how hard it is to measure and how it impacts different parts of the economy differently. If you’re buying chickens, it might be impacting you 20% or 100%, houses the same range but differently, etc. taxes at least are usually published and more knowable/can be planned around.
  - ucha 5y ago
    I'd say more like a tariff, because you pay a 80% tax when you buy foreign goods (or pay an 80% tax when a foreigner sells good to locals).

tomtheelder 5y ago

The idea that crypto would be a boon for the lower classes seems to me to be extremely dubious. Probably my single biggest concern about crypto is how much power it would shift away from governments and into the hands of the wealthy.

CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
> "that crypto would be a boon for the lower classes seems to me to be extremely dubious" Why? The lower classes are the most vulnerable to inflation. And even the poorest have cell phones these days. See TXT-banking in Africa. Or this example with Bitcoin: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tatianakoffman/2020/07/14/this-el-salvador-village-adopts-bitcoin-as-money https://www.forbes.com/sites/tatianakoffman/2020/07/14/this-... > "it would shift [power] away from governments and into the hands of the wealthy" You repeat yourself. ;) There are certainly risks - 51% attacks, etc. I don't know if crypto is the whole answer or maybe part of it, but when you consider how much the current financial systems are controlled and rigged, it's hard for me to see crypto as not an improvement for the common people.
- imtringued 5y ago
  >The lower classes are the most vulnerable to inflation. The lower classes spend most of their income and accumulate very little savings and even if they do, those savings will not generate enough returns to replace their job, if the latter were possible they would not be lower classes by definition. Really there is only one benefit that Bitcoin brings and that is the ability to "strike" and force central banks to set interest rates properly e.g. the threat of competition keeps everyone honest. Also, Bitcoin is going down very quickly. Considering the recent rise in inflation I wouldn't want to hold onto Bitcoin if my goal was to get ahead of inflation. The volatility completely drowns out inflation. You may have to hold onto your Bitcoin for years and hope for a recovery.
merpnderp 5y ago
Is that why it is such a huge hit in Venezuela and other high inflation countries? Because poor people are playing into the hands of the powerful and not because it gives them a stable way to store wealth and trade with people in other countries? Sorry for my tone, but it rubs me raw when people casually discount the plight of the poor with do-gooder polices that make people's lives even harder, all while ignoring actual evidence.

jollybean 5y ago

The notion that these anti-money laundering schemes and otherwise regular financial transactions are 'oppressive' is not only false, it's upside down. 'Poverty' is a system without trust, justice or regulatory oversight - that is a system of 'power by thuggery'. The reason Singapore and Hong Kong flourished is because they had objective commercial law, you could put your money in a bank and know it wasn't going to be stolen. You could make business claims against others in court, instead of having to hire gunboats. A rigorous financial system is a foundation of civility, not an oppression. If we want to 'improve' we can look at remove VISA/MC monopolies, platform monopolies (Apple etc.), and of course reduce fictionalization of the economy by the Fed ... ... but good luck with the later, as those receiving a 'tiny bit of free money' from the government have difficulty realizing that they are actually being duped by the fact that everyone higher than them on the ladder is getting 'even more free money from the government' and that their ostensibly handouts are going to get more than eaten up by inflation of various kinds. There is no magical solution to our problems, we need to more pragmatic and intelligent - there's nothing in the domain of crypto that's fundamentally going to change the equation other than as minor tool in support of something more broad and pragmatic.