4 ms·

For evidence about debunking, you can check out Twitter threads from Trevor Bedford (bio: https://bedford.io/team/trevor-bedford/ https://bedford.io/team/trevor

For evidence about debunking, you can check out Twitter threads from Trevor Bedford (bio: https://bedford.io/team/trevor-bedford/ https://bedford.io/team/trevor-bedford/) that are linked from https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1339266367522918400 https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1339266367522918400 In this discussion and the older threads he links in there, Bedford basically rules out an 'engineered' virus, does not rule out a lab leak, but leans towards zoonosis (pathogen jumping from animal to human). - Here are Thread reader links for the older threads he references: Were parts of HIV inserted into SARS-CoV-2? https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1223666856923291648.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1223666856923291648.html What do the number of amino acid and nucleotide changes tell us? https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1224207086013149184.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1224207086013149184.html Which data point are consistent with zoonosis or lab escape? https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1230634136102064128.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1230634136102064128.html

timr 5y ago
Trevor Bedford is one scientist at the Hutch. He is certainly qualified to have an opinion, but his opinion is not the conclusive determination on the matter. Other scientists whom I respect have different opinions: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1 The other links you provide are rebuttals of particular arguments, but in no way settle the entire question. Knowing that bits of HIV weren't inserted into SARS-CoV2, for example, tells you nothing about whether this virus may have emerged from natural selection experiments in the lab. There are good arguments on both sides, but Twitter, in particular, seems stuck on the pronouncements of early 2020, when nobody knew much of anything about the virus and a certain prominent politician was speculating wildly, thus setting up a left/right polarization over what should be a factual debate. We need to stop this hostile form of "scientific debate" where one person's opinion is held up as "the science", while all other voices are dismissed as fringe.
JPKab 5y ago
Define "engineered". If it was bred in a lab via humanized mice engineered with human ACE 2 receptors, would you consider that? What about forms of "no seeum" splicing?
- adolph 5y ago
  Also, Dr. Shi was trained by Ralph S. Baric of the University of North Carolina in building “chimera” viruses — taking, for example, the spike protein from a new virus and splicing it to the backbone of a known one like SARS. He invented “no-see-um” techniques that left no trace of the splice. From https://donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-lab-leak-theory-f4f88446b04d https://donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com/how-i-learned-to-stop...
noofen 5y ago
> Bedford basically rules out an 'engineered' virus, does not rule out a lab leak, but leans towards zoonosis (pathogen jumping from animal to human). Where are all these animals in the wild (since the lab theory has been "debunked") with SARS-CoV-2? I'd imagine we'd have found tons of them by now, right?
temp8964 5y ago
I find the word "debunk" has been frequently used by one political side to label any idea they disagree with. This is a very strange word. When I read history of science books, this word was almost never used. Change of scientific consensus is not uncommon in the history of science. Scientists disagree with each other, debate with each other, but they don't claim they debunk each other. I don't believe people use this word in good faith. It seems to be politically loaded power grab.
- mistermann 5y ago
  Misinformation is another word that has become extremely popular in the last year or two. I don't think very many people think very deeply about the meaning of words, and how subtle changes in the ones that are chosen can influence the collective consciousness. A lot of people even seem to strongly dislike the topic being mentioned.
  - brippalcharrid 5y ago
    I think that practitioners of Postmodernism have spent a lot of time thinking about the meanings of words that they can cause people to perceive, and that they have had a very successful track record of using this to shift cultural parameters and achieve their political objectives. They'd probably prefer that you didn't notice they were doing this.
    - mistermann 5y ago
      Politicians and journalists are probably a bit choked that others are stealing their bit!

timr 5y ago

Trevor Bedford is one scientist at the Hutch. He is certainly qualified to have an opinion, but his opinion is not the conclusive determination on the matter. Other scientists whom I respect have different opinions: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1 The other links you provide are rebuttals of particular arguments, but in no way settle the entire question. Knowing that bits of HIV weren't inserted into SARS-CoV2, for example, tells you nothing about whether this virus may have emerged from natural selection experiments in the lab. There are good arguments on both sides, but Twitter, in particular, seems stuck on the pronouncements of early 2020, when nobody knew much of anything about the virus and a certain prominent politician was speculating wildly, thus setting up a left/right polarization over what should be a factual debate. We need to stop this hostile form of "scientific debate" where one person's opinion is held up as "the science", while all other voices are dismissed as fringe.

JPKab 5y ago

Define "engineered". If it was bred in a lab via humanized mice engineered with human ACE 2 receptors, would you consider that? What about forms of "no seeum" splicing?

adolph 5y ago
Also, Dr. Shi was trained by Ralph S. Baric of the University of North Carolina in building “chimera” viruses — taking, for example, the spike protein from a new virus and splicing it to the backbone of a known one like SARS. He invented “no-see-um” techniques that left no trace of the splice. From https://donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-lab-leak-theory-f4f88446b04d https://donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com/how-i-learned-to-stop...

noofen 5y ago

> Bedford basically rules out an 'engineered' virus, does not rule out a lab leak, but leans towards zoonosis (pathogen jumping from animal to human). Where are all these animals in the wild (since the lab theory has been "debunked") with SARS-CoV-2? I'd imagine we'd have found tons of them by now, right?

temp8964 5y ago

I find the word "debunk" has been frequently used by one political side to label any idea they disagree with. This is a very strange word. When I read history of science books, this word was almost never used. Change of scientific consensus is not uncommon in the history of science. Scientists disagree with each other, debate with each other, but they don't claim they debunk each other. I don't believe people use this word in good faith. It seems to be politically loaded power grab.

mistermann 5y ago
Misinformation is another word that has become extremely popular in the last year or two. I don't think very many people think very deeply about the meaning of words, and how subtle changes in the ones that are chosen can influence the collective consciousness. A lot of people even seem to strongly dislike the topic being mentioned.
- brippalcharrid 5y ago
  I think that practitioners of Postmodernism have spent a lot of time thinking about the meanings of words that they can cause people to perceive, and that they have had a very successful track record of using this to shift cultural parameters and achieve their political objectives. They'd probably prefer that you didn't notice they were doing this.
  - mistermann 5y ago
    Politicians and journalists are probably a bit choked that others are stealing their bit!