5 ms·

How is this even going to work? PRC will never allow access to the actual data if it was a lab escape/origin. The sort of propoganda happening on Twitter shows

How is this even going to work? PRC will never allow access to the actual data if it was a lab escape/origin. The sort of propoganda happening on Twitter shows that even discussion is going to be difficult.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tomjen3 5y ago
If experts can make a decent argument that the lab escape is the most likely scenario, then the PRC can choose to let us have access to the data, or look 100% guilty and be treated accordingly.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  So guilty unless proven innocent?
  - option 5y ago
    if they are indeed innocent isn’t fair and unbiased investigation in their best interest?
    - thereare5lights 5y ago
      No because there's no such thing as a fair and unbiased investigation. Politics will be inexorably intertwined in such an investigation.
    - Dah00n 5y ago
      Yes, by Chinese citizens. Not by foreigners.
  - tomjen3 5y ago
    For anybody who has power, absolutely. I am beyond tired of police, countries and politicians getting away with horrible crimes. For ordinary citizens, of course not.
- actuator 5y ago
  You don't believe data can be manufactured/erased to tell a story if someone is willing to? There is enough time as well to generate a new trail of breadcrumbs. I don't think we will get the true answer or an answer that is going to satisfy everyone, just a lot of geopolitical posturing.
  - calotow 5y ago
    I read on a bumper sticker though that "science doesn't lie".
- slowmovintarget 5y ago
  No, all the choices have already been made. The data have already been destroyed. The Wuhan lab where this research was taking place also had a leadership change, and is now run by someone in the military. That happened in March or April of 2020, IIRC. Chinese researchers and journalists disappeared in that time frame (their work was deleted from online archives, their names removed from public employment listings... etc.). I have family in China, and we watched all this happen. These are the things that happened in public. The Western press was too busy with "oh my gosh, we should probably stop flights now" to take serious notice. Then the whole thing became politicized (in the U.S., at least) and if you made statements like "this started in Wuhan, in the lab there, not in the animal market next to it," you were called racist, even though race had nothing to do with it. We can ask until the cows come hom. The evidence is gone, disposed of by a series of decisions made more than a year ago.
  - adrianb 5y ago
    > if you made statements like "this started in Wuhan, in the lab there, not in the animal market next to it," you were called racist, even though race had nothing to do with it. Honestly I always felt like "a scientist working with dangerous pathogens had an accident" is way less racist than "someone ate a weird animal from a wet market"... And yet the backlash was stronger for the lab leak scenario, almost as if the opinions were influenced by someone.
    - astrobe_ 5y ago
      To be fair the lab escape scenario looks a lot like a conspiracy theory. One should remember that around that time the "flat earth" theory was still going on (IIRC), and there are similar lab escape theories about AIDS.
      - munk-a 5y ago
        There have always been conspiracy theories but I think it's more relevant to note how quickly this theory was co-opted by anti-asian racism and converted into a version where that lab escape was interpreted to be an intention action to cause a world wide pandemic. I really sympathize with both sides here - I think it's quite possible a lab accident was involved with the virus escaping into the world... but the benefit we'd get from knowing that would mostly involve labs being a lot more careful with PPE and I think we've seen PPE usage tick way up and the dangerous involved with disease handling get a lot larger of a spotlight. And, I also think that beating up or harassing Asian-Americans is wrong and if we need to tell a big societal level lie to people to get them to stop then I'm okay with that.
- jollybean 5y ago
  As we learned in the last election cycle, the Truth is a matter of populism. If Wuhan lab leak were 'truth' - without hard evidence and a bold international campaign to forcefully make people aware ... then China would be able to hide behind a cloud of whataboutery and changing the subject. Unless there is some kind of genetic linkage etc.. I also feel that some US authorities wouldn't want the truth to be fully known lest there be unpredictable repercussions and 'worries about Anti Asian Hate Crime' and those kinds of things, preferring to handle it 'behind closed doors'. It would be great if we could arrive at some kind of objective truth, not holding my breath.
fullshark 5y ago
Even if the west simply refuses to 100% accept the natural origin story it will have geopolitical consequences.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tomjen3 5y ago

If experts can make a decent argument that the lab escape is the most likely scenario, then the PRC can choose to let us have access to the data, or look 100% guilty and be treated accordingly.

Dah00n 5y ago
So guilty unless proven innocent?
- option 5y ago
  if they are indeed innocent isn’t fair and unbiased investigation in their best interest?
  - thereare5lights 5y ago
    No because there's no such thing as a fair and unbiased investigation. Politics will be inexorably intertwined in such an investigation.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    Yes, by Chinese citizens. Not by foreigners.
- tomjen3 5y ago
  For anybody who has power, absolutely. I am beyond tired of police, countries and politicians getting away with horrible crimes. For ordinary citizens, of course not.
actuator 5y ago
You don't believe data can be manufactured/erased to tell a story if someone is willing to? There is enough time as well to generate a new trail of breadcrumbs. I don't think we will get the true answer or an answer that is going to satisfy everyone, just a lot of geopolitical posturing.
- calotow 5y ago
  I read on a bumper sticker though that "science doesn't lie".
slowmovintarget 5y ago
No, all the choices have already been made. The data have already been destroyed. The Wuhan lab where this research was taking place also had a leadership change, and is now run by someone in the military. That happened in March or April of 2020, IIRC. Chinese researchers and journalists disappeared in that time frame (their work was deleted from online archives, their names removed from public employment listings... etc.). I have family in China, and we watched all this happen. These are the things that happened in public. The Western press was too busy with "oh my gosh, we should probably stop flights now" to take serious notice. Then the whole thing became politicized (in the U.S., at least) and if you made statements like "this started in Wuhan, in the lab there, not in the animal market next to it," you were called racist, even though race had nothing to do with it. We can ask until the cows come hom. The evidence is gone, disposed of by a series of decisions made more than a year ago.
- adrianb 5y ago
  > if you made statements like "this started in Wuhan, in the lab there, not in the animal market next to it," you were called racist, even though race had nothing to do with it. Honestly I always felt like "a scientist working with dangerous pathogens had an accident" is way less racist than "someone ate a weird animal from a wet market"... And yet the backlash was stronger for the lab leak scenario, almost as if the opinions were influenced by someone.
  - astrobe_ 5y ago
    To be fair the lab escape scenario looks a lot like a conspiracy theory. One should remember that around that time the "flat earth" theory was still going on (IIRC), and there are similar lab escape theories about AIDS.
    - munk-a 5y ago
      There have always been conspiracy theories but I think it's more relevant to note how quickly this theory was co-opted by anti-asian racism and converted into a version where that lab escape was interpreted to be an intention action to cause a world wide pandemic. I really sympathize with both sides here - I think it's quite possible a lab accident was involved with the virus escaping into the world... but the benefit we'd get from knowing that would mostly involve labs being a lot more careful with PPE and I think we've seen PPE usage tick way up and the dangerous involved with disease handling get a lot larger of a spotlight. And, I also think that beating up or harassing Asian-Americans is wrong and if we need to tell a big societal level lie to people to get them to stop then I'm okay with that.
jollybean 5y ago
As we learned in the last election cycle, the Truth is a matter of populism. If Wuhan lab leak were 'truth' - without hard evidence and a bold international campaign to forcefully make people aware ... then China would be able to hide behind a cloud of whataboutery and changing the subject. Unless there is some kind of genetic linkage etc.. I also feel that some US authorities wouldn't want the truth to be fully known lest there be unpredictable repercussions and 'worries about Anti Asian Hate Crime' and those kinds of things, preferring to handle it 'behind closed doors'. It would be great if we could arrive at some kind of objective truth, not holding my breath.

fullshark 5y ago

Even if the west simply refuses to 100% accept the natural origin story it will have geopolitical consequences.