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I have microservices in production using both. Kotlin the language, I absolutely love. I'd put it in my top 5 languages. I don't hate Java but I've never really

I have microservices in production using both. Kotlin the language, I absolutely love. I'd put it in my top 5 languages. I don't hate Java but I've never really enjoyed writing it. Even with all the cool new features, it's always felt bloated to me. I can't see that ever going away. With that said, I really hate how tight of a hold JetBrains has on Kotlin. While you may find an outlier here or there, (someone using Eclipse/NetBeans - heck, I've even used Visual Studio Code and Vim to hack on some stuff) 99% of the people writing Kotlin are using IntelliJ. Kotlin is built to sell IntelliJ. (And the lock-in is pretty apparent) I don't begrudge a company the right to do this. I don't like it, but I have a choice whether or not to use the language. Lastly, Kotlin feels unencumbered. One can program in a functional style like Scala. One can program in an OO style like Java. It feels "free". The sugar that it adds to Java makes my day to day a pleasure. So consider me a fan of the language itself. I highly recommend building things with it. Am I optimistic about its future? That's really hard to say. Google's behind it at the moment, but Google's attention span rivals that of a fruit fly.

blacktriangle 5y ago
The Google question really can't be ignored, to the point where "Should I use Java or Kotlin on Android?" and "Should I use Java or Kotlin for <any other use of the JVM>?" are two totally different questions.
- nobleach 5y ago
  I agree. Using Kotlin with Spring Boot and Micronaut are no-brainers for me. The Kotlin support for both projects is fantastic. I do feel that if Google pulled the plug and started putting their emphasis on DartVM for Android projects (or something like that), we'd see a reduction in Kotlin adoption in other areas though.
  - throwaway3699 5y ago
    FWIW, Dart and Kotlin are being pushed by two completely different parts of Google. It's safe to say that Kotlin is the future on Android.
    - afavour 5y ago
      I don't see how it's "safe to say" anything about Google's future plans in an area like this. They can and will change their mind on a whim.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      It is safe to say something else is currently being developed/released that will add more confusion.
falcolas 5y ago
> Google's behind it at the moment, but Google's attention span rivals that of a fruit fly. Dart enters the chat, sobbing quietly.
- johnnycerberus 5y ago
  you can hear Dart's heavy breath in the back of your neck
- mhoad 5y ago
  I wouldn't mistake popularity with attention. Dart is actually super actively developed and I am still saying in the year 2021 that it is going to become a very big deal once Fuschia drops which could be as early as this week at I/O. https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk/graphs/commit-activity https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk/graphs/commit-activity
sorokod 5y ago
I sometimes think that Kotlin as it is, could not exist without Intellij.
- bmc7505 5y ago
  Kotlin also works with Vim [1], Eclipse [2] and the Language Server Protocol [3]. [1]: https://github.com/udalov/kotlin-vim https://github.com/udalov/kotlin-vim [2]: https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin-eclipse https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin-eclipse [3]: https://github.com/fwcd/kotlin-language-server https://github.com/fwcd/kotlin-language-server
  - vips7L 5y ago
    IIRC kotlin-eclipse is always behind and the kotlin LSP repo's readme basically says that it's unmaintained.
    - bmc7505 5y ago
      Both look pretty well maintained to me. Just like any other language (including Java), there are tools which are more or less active depending where users are concentrated. Most JVM developers I know prefer the IntelliJ Platform, so it's not surprising to me that's where most of the development effort is concentrated. Still, developers have their choice.
  - sorokod 5y ago
    I am sure you could code Kotlin in Nano too. The experience would not be great though. Looking at [1] I see: "Feature Request: Highlight Function Names"
    - bmc7505 5y ago
      The same could be said about Java or any other statically typed programming language in a text editor for that matter. Neither Vim nor Nano are intended as standalone IDEs, so it makes sense the UI is less complete. Despite their rudimentary features, many developers still prefer text editors for their low latency and wide availability across most shell environments. This is no different in Kotlin. If you want richer features like completion, refactoring and static analysis, use an IDE.
deleted 5y ago
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brundolf 5y ago
> And the lock-in is pretty apparent Can you give examples? Are there licensing constraints, or is it just that they do most of the development, documentation, planning, etc internally?
- nobleach 5y ago
  One needs to simply go to the support forums and ask about support for any other text editor. While there is an Eclipse plugin, it's a pretty horrible experience I understand. I'm a Vim user for pretty much everything I do, there's no chance I'm getting a decent Kotlin experience. Java's not too bad these days. I'll admit, IntelliJ is awesome for both Java and Kotlin... I just don't want to pay for the privilege of writing enterprise Kotlin.
  - brundolf 5y ago
    What I'm asking is: does something stand in the way of the community building a decent Kotlin experience for Eclipse or Vim (a language server perhaps)? Or is there just a lack of will?
- thu2111 5y ago
  There's no actual lockin, it's just that JetBrains put a lot of resources into the IntelliJ plugin and the quality of that plugin is a large part of Kotlin's value. You can easily write Kotlin in any other editor of course, but the experience won't be as good. JB have a team of over 70 people I think working on Kotlin as this point, and the IDE plugin shares the compiler infrastructure, so they improve together. If you were trying to write a competitive plugin it'd be a lot of work. Of course, if your editor was written in Java you could also re-use the compiler infrastructure in the same way they do. Their planning is half internal/half external. There are public specs that get feedback for all language upgrades. How JB choose to prioritise is up to them, of course.
  - ta988 5y ago
    The problem if you want to write your own plugin is that the compiler interface is really brittle and not documented properly, so thats going to be a maintenance nightmare.

blacktriangle 5y ago

The Google question really can't be ignored, to the point where "Should I use Java or Kotlin on Android?" and "Should I use Java or Kotlin for <any other use of the JVM>?" are two totally different questions.

nobleach 5y ago
I agree. Using Kotlin with Spring Boot and Micronaut are no-brainers for me. The Kotlin support for both projects is fantastic. I do feel that if Google pulled the plug and started putting their emphasis on DartVM for Android projects (or something like that), we'd see a reduction in Kotlin adoption in other areas though.
- throwaway3699 5y ago
  FWIW, Dart and Kotlin are being pushed by two completely different parts of Google. It's safe to say that Kotlin is the future on Android.
  - afavour 5y ago
    I don't see how it's "safe to say" anything about Google's future plans in an area like this. They can and will change their mind on a whim.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    It is safe to say something else is currently being developed/released that will add more confusion.

falcolas 5y ago

> Google's behind it at the moment, but Google's attention span rivals that of a fruit fly. Dart enters the chat, sobbing quietly.

johnnycerberus 5y ago
you can hear Dart's heavy breath in the back of your neck
mhoad 5y ago
I wouldn't mistake popularity with attention. Dart is actually super actively developed and I am still saying in the year 2021 that it is going to become a very big deal once Fuschia drops which could be as early as this week at I/O. https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk/graphs/commit-activity https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk/graphs/commit-activity

sorokod 5y ago

I sometimes think that Kotlin as it is, could not exist without Intellij.

bmc7505 5y ago
Kotlin also works with Vim [1], Eclipse [2] and the Language Server Protocol [3]. [1]: https://github.com/udalov/kotlin-vim https://github.com/udalov/kotlin-vim [2]: https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin-eclipse https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin-eclipse [3]: https://github.com/fwcd/kotlin-language-server https://github.com/fwcd/kotlin-language-server
- vips7L 5y ago
  IIRC kotlin-eclipse is always behind and the kotlin LSP repo's readme basically says that it's unmaintained.
  - bmc7505 5y ago
    Both look pretty well maintained to me. Just like any other language (including Java), there are tools which are more or less active depending where users are concentrated. Most JVM developers I know prefer the IntelliJ Platform, so it's not surprising to me that's where most of the development effort is concentrated. Still, developers have their choice.
- sorokod 5y ago
  I am sure you could code Kotlin in Nano too. The experience would not be great though. Looking at [1] I see: "Feature Request: Highlight Function Names"
  - bmc7505 5y ago
    The same could be said about Java or any other statically typed programming language in a text editor for that matter. Neither Vim nor Nano are intended as standalone IDEs, so it makes sense the UI is less complete. Despite their rudimentary features, many developers still prefer text editors for their low latency and wide availability across most shell environments. This is no different in Kotlin. If you want richer features like completion, refactoring and static analysis, use an IDE.

deleted 5y ago

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brundolf 5y ago

> And the lock-in is pretty apparent Can you give examples? Are there licensing constraints, or is it just that they do most of the development, documentation, planning, etc internally?

nobleach 5y ago
One needs to simply go to the support forums and ask about support for any other text editor. While there is an Eclipse plugin, it's a pretty horrible experience I understand. I'm a Vim user for pretty much everything I do, there's no chance I'm getting a decent Kotlin experience. Java's not too bad these days. I'll admit, IntelliJ is awesome for both Java and Kotlin... I just don't want to pay for the privilege of writing enterprise Kotlin.
- brundolf 5y ago
  What I'm asking is: does something stand in the way of the community building a decent Kotlin experience for Eclipse or Vim (a language server perhaps)? Or is there just a lack of will?
thu2111 5y ago
There's no actual lockin, it's just that JetBrains put a lot of resources into the IntelliJ plugin and the quality of that plugin is a large part of Kotlin's value. You can easily write Kotlin in any other editor of course, but the experience won't be as good. JB have a team of over 70 people I think working on Kotlin as this point, and the IDE plugin shares the compiler infrastructure, so they improve together. If you were trying to write a competitive plugin it'd be a lot of work. Of course, if your editor was written in Java you could also re-use the compiler infrastructure in the same way they do. Their planning is half internal/half external. There are public specs that get feedback for all language upgrades. How JB choose to prioritise is up to them, of course.
- ta988 5y ago
  The problem if you want to write your own plugin is that the compiler interface is really brittle and not documented properly, so thats going to be a maintenance nightmare.