16 ms·
US investigates second suspected case of mystery 'syndrome' near White House
- jb775 5y agoA March report from the National Academy of Sciences found that "directed, pulsed radiofrequency energy" was the most likely cause of the strange set of symptoms -- so-called microwave energy Maybe the Biden administration should start wearing tin foil hats?
- detaro 5y agonice spherical/parabolic dishes with a focus-point in your head is exactly what you don't want
- smoldesu 5y agoIt would do a great job of amping the signal right into your cranium!
- LinuxBender 5y agoWe could bring chain-mail armor back into style. I mistakenly searched for "chain-mail cosplay", not linking to that.
- klmadfejno 5y agoI got some chain mail bikini girls but that's about it.
- rich_sasha 5y agoNoob q: wouldn’t that be the case only for radiation coming along the body axis? If tin foil reflects these waves at all, having the radiation come from other angles should make it less bad, no? Like if they come face-on, they won’t catch any of the concave part of the “dish” and be scattered away instead.
- detaro 5y agoIt was mostly a joke, but there is still a focusing effect for sources that are off-axis, so it'd really depend on direction and shape of the foil hat. e.g. if it covered a lot of the back of the head but left the face open, like a crash helmet, the main axis wouldn't be straight down, for a tinfoil cap it would be.
- colanderman 5y agoMicrowave retroreflectors are a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corner_reflector#In_radar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corner_reflector#In_radar Too large for personal use, but one could certainly line a wall with them. Would increase the danger of using such a weapon, to have a significant portion of the signal reflected back at the operator. Apparently there's been some very recent research into planar (and presumably more portable) microwave retroreflectors as well: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9060553 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9060553
- jeffchien 5y agoNot sure why CNN chose to say March here, but the report (and CNN's own article that was linked in the quote!) was from Dec 2020 [1]. The CDC also studied this in 2018-2019, but they didn't produce a theory [2]. [1] https://www.nap.edu/catalog/25889/an-assessment-of-illness-in-us-government-employees-and-their-families-at-overseas-embassies https://www.nap.edu/catalog/25889/an-assessment-of-illness-i... [2] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20444983-foia-21-00330-final-report1 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20444983-foia-21-003...
- belltaco 5y agoCan you develop a sensor that detects high levels of this kind of radiation that can be put in a pocket or a purse and connects to a smartphone.
- nradov 5y agoSure. Small microwave radio receivers exist.
- kawfey 5y agoThese exist for occupational use as PPE, not unlike ionizing radiation monitors, e.g. https://www.atecorp.com/category/personal-rf-monitors https://www.atecorp.com/category/personal-rf-monitors
- meepmorp 5y ago> connects to a smartphone Believe it or not, your smartphone already has hardware for dealing with microwaves.
- sobriquet9 5y agoOnly within certain frequency ranges. There are filters that block everything else.
- ampdepolymerase 5y agoYou don't need to develop anything. This is a bog standard antenna exercise. At the level of power being used here, detecting it is trivial. The only issue for an omnidirectional antenna is perhaps portability. The powers that be most likely already know who is behind the attacks, or at least have a good guess. What they are willing to sell to the press is another question entirely.
- mywittyname 5y agoI've always wondered what the reasoning behind discussing these topics with the press. I can understand if some nosy reporter is doing their job, uncovering information that is being hidden from the public. But in situations like this, I can't really see the value in discussing with the press; and I'm sure they wouldn't say anything to the press without getting some value from it.
- SnowProblem 5y agoWhen I was researching the Cuba cases, I stumbled upon this Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect. It says there is a mechanism where microwaves can cause you to hear sounds that don't exist. In the 70s, they apparently improved the method so subjects were able to recognize 9 out of 10 words, although I don't think it's been reproduced. There are some strange patents as well. The problem is this subject is laced with conspiracy theory because you'll find forums for people with mental illness attributing their symptoms to these devices. But it is interesting, and I'd expect if it were possible the military would have such devices. Has there been any proof that this method actually works?
- katmannthree 5y agoThat mechanism, by the way, is microwave heating of the brain -- thermal expansion causes cranial pressure to rise, and by carefully modulating the microwaves those pressure signals are interpreted as sound by your inner ear.
- Enginerrrd 5y agoI previously have read that it's more specifically heating and cooling of the inner ear itself.
- sudosysgen 5y agoIt's the entire head that is being heated, but perhaps the inner ear is the critical spot.
- R0b0t1 5y agoThe entire head is being heated, slightly, but it can only cool by dissipating that heat to the environment. This happens slowly enough I do not see it as possible to achieve audible frequencies with such a heating/cooling cycle. The auditory effects have to be generated by RF, possibly frequency phased modulation, interacting with the inner ear.
- draw_down 5y agoI wonder how many people who call this “Havana syndrome” were among those who got bent out of shape about the “China virus” thing last year.
- fallingknife 5y agoWhat is the incidence of these symptoms in government employees vs the general population? Is there even enough evidence to establish that this isn't some unknown neurological disorder (or multiple disorders given the range of symptoms)? The way our medical system is set up, if it's not obvious or catastrophic, you're symptoms will not be investigated in detail. So I tend to think it's a more likely explanation that some directed energy weapon from the Russians. That sounds like a cold war moral panic.
- boomboomsubban 5y agoI read most of the report when it was released, and their conclusion was based on nothing. Their section on whether the syndrome was psychological basically said "all available evidence fits the hypothesis that it's psychological, but there isn't enough to conclusively state it is." They shouldn't be surprised that a bunch of people are coming forward with a myriad of symptoms after a report like that. Nothing in these two cases described have anything in common, just felt ill somewhere near the White House. I doubt that's uncommon.
- BitwiseFool 5y agoThis whole thing really seems like some Psychosomatic Disorder. But I suspect that the people affected won't want to believe "it's all in their head". But there are plenty of historical parallels where groups of people started reporting the same malady with no apparent rational cause. And I suspect our modern day focus on rationality will lead to people looking for increasingly outlandish explanations because they don't want to believe that this is just some shared delusion that got out of hand.
- tantalor 5y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_plague_of_1518 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_plague_of_1518
- amirhirsch 5y agoI'm calling it now: Covid-22 will be a Dancing Plague -- Also a good name for an ironic book about an air force pilot who wants to become a ballet dancer, but how can he learn to dance, if no one will dance with him...?
- boomboomsubban 5y agoMost people have a very recent experience with a similar thing. Someone you know mistook their allergies or some cough for COVID and convinced themselves it was serious. This is a similar concept, except a negative test result only makes things worse.
- Stranger43 5y agoIs there any real reason why we assume were dealing with an physical phenomena induced by an external source(rf/radiation) and not some new variant of post traumatic stress, we are after all dealing with people living/working long hours inside an highly paranoid and potentially very dysfunctional organization. If there exist an blood test as the article claim it's should point to an chemical source rather then an electromagnetic source of the illness, and if that's the case we are almost certainly looking at American procurement incompetence rather then something nefarious by external actors. So far there is not a lot of evidence pointing at any kind of illness ray being deployed by nefarious actors.
- buhhh 5y agolmao
- danbruc 5y agoIf there exist an blood test as the article claim it's should point to an chemical source rather then an electromagnetic source of the illness [...] Not necessarily, you could detect the reaction instead of the cause in the same way an antibody test does not detect the pathogen or a drug test may actually detect a metabolite and not the drug itself.
- dboreham 5y agoYou'd need a test for "cooked flesh".
- s1artibartfast 5y agoYou can absolutely see results from cooked flesh on a blood test. The problem is that there are other possible causes for the results than cooked flesh
- Stranger43 5y agofor there to be specific antibodies to the cause i cant see how that would happen without some foreing element having been in the bloodstream. or be the result of close proximity to radioactive materials. It might be that they don't really have an blood test for specific traces but have an correlation between the presence of stress hormones and people suffering the symptoms which only really proves that the involved people are not lying about feeling sick, it don't really answer the "illness ray" vs "post traumatic stress" question.
- mc32 5y agoWhat if it’s a measures + countermeasures that’s adding up to weird syndromes in some edge cases? It’s curious that so far it has only been reported to affect American personnel, but you’d imagine an adversary would have many adversarial targets from and in different counties, unless we suspect we are specially targeted and then mostly low level personnel?
- HumblyTossed 5y agoWouldn't counter measures just need to be passive (ie: literally a tin-foil hat)?
- unnouinceput 5y agoFaraday cage, yes, if dealing with electromagnetic waves/radiation
- Natsu 5y agoHonestly, it makes me wonder if some spy gear of our own is malfunctioning somehow and they can't admit it so they spin up conspiracies. I mean, where's the device? The last time they came out with evidence, it was a recording of crickets ...
- earth_walker 5y agoCanadian diplomats in Cuba were exposed previously: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-tuesday-edition-1.4809876/microwaves-behind-sonic-attacks-on-canadian-and-u-s-diplomats-says-doctor-1.4809885 https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-tuesday-e...
- nabla9 5y agoThis sounds like yet another Yellow Rain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_rain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_rain
- Forbo 5y agoThe US accusing their enemies of doing something that they themselves had actually been doing. Golden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange
- sudosysgen 5y agoI had never heard of Yellow Rain before. That's very interesting.
- f430 5y agoIt's already been verified unofficially amongst Biden's people that Cuba and this is PRC's doing. I am ready to receive downvotes as is often case criticisms of the CCP on HN are quickly flagged and censored. Just look at where YC gets a lot of their capital from. It's really sad as a non-American to see how your own fellow citizens actively seek to undermine the values of your country for personal enrichment.
- anoonmoose 5y agoYou're not getting downvoted for criticizing the CCP, at least, not from me. You're getting downvoted for making unverifiable claims ("it's been verified unofficially amongst Biden's people") and for your pre-emptive complaining about being downvoted. Just want to make this clear.
- maccam912 5y agoDo you have a link to this unofficial verification?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- joshuaheard 5y agoI though the symptoms in Cuba were determined to be caused by a mosquito pesticide.
- itronitron 5y agohttps://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191003111753.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191003111753.h...
- frankus 5y agoThis is probably more of a thriller-novel MacGuffin than a hypothesis, but if you compromised a few nearby cell towers to interfere with each other just so, it might be possible to create a small pocket of very intense radiation without needing any other hardware.
- sschueller 5y agoCould it be a stingray (cell interception device) running at power levels way beyond legal limits to make sure it's heard over regular LTE/5G towers?
- snypher 5y agoMaybe someone turned it from 10db to 20db, it's only twice as strong right?
- WrtCdEvrydy 5y agoLogarithmic scale... 3db = 2x... 10 to 20b is ~8x (2^3) the amount.
- meepmorp 5y agoI think that was the joke.
- MichaelBurge 5y agothat's the joke
- ceedan 5y agoSeems like a good theory based on the locations and victims
- paulpauper 5y agoThere is no substance here. A few people have vague ill symtoms due to some unknown cause.
- meowface 5y agoIt's over 130 diplomats and spies reporting it, at this point. And the reports are very specific and not vague. I'd bet money something real's going on and that the majority of the cases aren't psychogenic. Good article on it: https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-and-russian-microwave-attacks https://www.gq.com/story/cia-investigation-and-russian-micro...
- paulpauper 5y agoover a 5 year period
- meowface 5y agoYes, and? In my opinion, the evidence points to it being more likely that the majority of cases are real symptoms of an attack or collection technique, even if some of the reports may be psychogenic.
- 35fbe7d3d5b9 5y ago> It's over 130 diplomats and spies reporting it If you wanted to bootstrap a mass psychogenic illness, it'd be harder to come up with a better scenario. You have civilian employees of the US government living out of their comfort zone, in a foreign country that is putatively "the enemy". You're eating unfamiliar foods, sleeping in unfamiliar surroundings, and all the while being told to be on constant alert for the dangers posed by your host country. > And the reports are very specific and not vague Some may be specific, but you're significantly overselling this. There are inconsistencies in both the reports of the affected individuals and what data has been allowed to be released by the US government. https://skepticalinquirer.org/2021/03/nas-report-on-havana-syndrome-mired-in-controversy/ https://skepticalinquirer.org/2021/03/nas-report-on-havana-s...
- 1-6 5y agoTime to break out my faraday cage hat.
- miika 5y agoCheck this CNN clip from 1985 https://youtu.be/fq17HUxkTZ8 https://youtu.be/fq17HUxkTZ8
- cols 5y agoFor those interested, below is a YT link to a long conversation with Marc Polymeropoulos [0], a survivor of a Havana Syndrome attack and a former CIA Senior Intelligence Service Officer. He describes the evening of his "attack" in detail. He also goes into great detail discussing his attempts to get help through various medical channels. Curiously, it appears as if most/all survivors have developed occipital neuralgia. He also discusses the fact that apparently, after geofencing the area around the attacks, there is a known Russian agent in the proximity of the victim every time. I take all of this with a grain of salt; I find it difficult to trust any intelligence agency without a healthy dose of skepticism, but quite interesting nonetheless. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5jTbsvd3rA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5jTbsvd3rA
- Threeve303 5y agoIs it even technically possible to take a microwave and apply WiFi beam forming techniques to control the location and amplitude of the signal?
- colanderman 5y agoYes, beamforming radar exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phased_array#Radar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phased_array#Radar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_antenna_array#Radars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_antenna_array#Radars
- 1024core 5y agoAnd people thought that the tin-foil hat wearing crowd was a bunch of weirdos... who's laughing now? :-D
- turtletontine 5y agoI read a convincing article a while back about these incidents in Cuba, by a neurologist saying this is all totally consistent with stress triggered neurologic incidents, and the microwave/sonic weapon stuff was all extraordinary claims with little evidence. The first case listed here just says "headaches and sleep trouble," buddy, I have that twice a week. I'm no expert but I'm inclined to believe the intelligence apparatus is on some overeager pattern matching.
- btbuildem 5y agoThe details are sparse, but are these incidents happening exclusively in / around US govt buildings and installations? I wonder if it could be coming from their own infrastructure - some side effect of an active RF shield or whatever.
- GoodJokes 5y agothe sources on this whole thing are super stellar!
- permo-w 5y agoThis is a really poorly-written article. The headline mentions a syndrome, then besides a very brief description of a mild case, proceeds to give no description as to the actual symptoms of the syndrome in the first 5 or 6 paragraphs. It links to an article about Havana Syndrome, which I assume gives more detailed symptoms, but that’s not the point. An article describing a mysterious “syndrome” should have the symptoms front and centre, not hidden at the end of the article or behind a link. It’s very poor journalism in my opinion