6 ms·

If there is a power imbalance it is not appropriate. And it seems that this was the conclusion of the board.

by louwrentius 5y ago

f6v 5y ago
It’s peculiar that corporations decide what’s appropriate and not, even in your love life.
- louwrentius 5y ago
  It is very common that relations with subordinates are not permissible exactly because of the power imbalance. If (s)he says no, what could the repercussion be?
  - the-dude 5y ago
    HR is not there for you, but for the well being of the corp. In the same vein relations between managers and subordinates are not permitted, not to protect the well being of the subordinate, but to protect the well being of the corp.
    - throwaway8581 5y ago
      Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- austincheney 5y ago
  It’s not peculiar if the sexual relationship is intertwined with a different legally recognized relationship status, such as employment, at which point there may be a criminal violation of harassment or assault. Criminal violations, especially if repeated, can harm a company’s reputation and open the company to various forms of civil litigation.
  - throwaway8581 5y ago
    There is nothing in the laws of this country that makes an employee/manager sexual relationship a criminal offense. There is no criminal law against "sexual harassment," which exists as a legal concept only for purposes of employment discrimination lawsuits. The only legal consequence of a manager/employee relationship is that the employee can easily turn around and sue the company for sexual harassment or wrongful termination by convincing a jury that something more happened, e.g. that the manager conditioned promotion on sex, fired the employee for ending the relationship, etc.
    - austincheney 5y ago
      If you know that is a high risk scenario then the company’s legal advisors should put rules and enforcement in place to forbid such relationships and thereby transfer liability to offending employees.
      - throwaway8581 5y ago
        There is no individual liability for sexual harassment in the US, only for employers. Anyway, my point was just to respond to someone claiming there was criminal liability.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    That is tough and bad for the company... Wherever love falls is my opinion on it. I think someone in leadership position has to recuse himself from managing their love affair, but that would be his decision. Military can be another exception. Would never date my boss though if I didn't have an exit plan. Doubt you would ever get happy if such a relationship fails.
- pmarreck 5y ago
  She started making demands. Some of those, if public, would impact the perception of Microsoft and the board. It is therefore in the board's interest to be concerned. If we took on more of a French attitude about extramarital behavior (see: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/14/french-more-accepting-of-infidelity-than-people-in-other-countries/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/14/french-more...), it would reduce the power that "the other woman" has... which might actually discourage some from assuming that role.
spodek 5y ago
Can you describe the power imbalance? Within the company, in principle he has authority, but for one thing, he can't act with impunity. He's responsible to the Board and shareholders, so if he promoted, demoted, fired, or otherwise exercised that authority unfairly, he could be held accountable, so that power is limited. For another thing, his authority is only one source of power. She can go to the media, where even allegations could inflict huge damage. In this case, the employee seems to hold tremendous power since she could publicize a consensual (with her), though extramarital (not likely, though possibly, consenting from his wife) relationship in the workplace. I'm not saying good, bad, right, or wrong. I'm just wondering what the power imbalance is in practice.
- _Understated_ 5y ago
  >He's responsible to the Board and shareholders, so if he promoted, demoted, fired, or otherwise exercised that authority unfairly, he could be held accountable, so that power is limited. All true, but he could say to her boss "I don't like her, make life hard so she leaves". He doesn't even need to ask for her to be fired, just make life hell: move her desk near the toilets, don't invite her to meetings, give her the shit jobs etc. What if you were her boss? Would you tell the guy at the top "No"? Even if you had the balls, what's to stop him then going to your boss and pointing the finger at you? It has all sorts of repercussions.
ObserverNeutral 5y ago
> If there is a power imbalance it is not appropriate. And it seems that this was the conclusion of the board. Who should Bill Gates date in order for it not being a power imbalance? Only the Queen of England comes to mind, maybe Lady Diana back in the 90s.

If there is a power imbalance it is not appropriate. And it seems that this was the conclusion of the board.

f6v 5y ago

It’s peculiar that corporations decide what’s appropriate and not, even in your love life.

louwrentius 5y ago
It is very common that relations with subordinates are not permissible exactly because of the power imbalance. If (s)he says no, what could the repercussion be?
- the-dude 5y ago
  HR is not there for you, but for the well being of the corp. In the same vein relations between managers and subordinates are not permitted, not to protect the well being of the subordinate, but to protect the well being of the corp.
  - throwaway8581 5y ago
    Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
austincheney 5y ago
It’s not peculiar if the sexual relationship is intertwined with a different legally recognized relationship status, such as employment, at which point there may be a criminal violation of harassment or assault. Criminal violations, especially if repeated, can harm a company’s reputation and open the company to various forms of civil litigation.
- throwaway8581 5y ago
  There is nothing in the laws of this country that makes an employee/manager sexual relationship a criminal offense. There is no criminal law against "sexual harassment," which exists as a legal concept only for purposes of employment discrimination lawsuits. The only legal consequence of a manager/employee relationship is that the employee can easily turn around and sue the company for sexual harassment or wrongful termination by convincing a jury that something more happened, e.g. that the manager conditioned promotion on sex, fired the employee for ending the relationship, etc.
  - austincheney 5y ago
    If you know that is a high risk scenario then the company’s legal advisors should put rules and enforcement in place to forbid such relationships and thereby transfer liability to offending employees.
    - throwaway8581 5y ago
      There is no individual liability for sexual harassment in the US, only for employers. Anyway, my point was just to respond to someone claiming there was criminal liability.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  That is tough and bad for the company... Wherever love falls is my opinion on it. I think someone in leadership position has to recuse himself from managing their love affair, but that would be his decision. Military can be another exception. Would never date my boss though if I didn't have an exit plan. Doubt you would ever get happy if such a relationship fails.
pmarreck 5y ago
She started making demands. Some of those, if public, would impact the perception of Microsoft and the board. It is therefore in the board's interest to be concerned. If we took on more of a French attitude about extramarital behavior (see: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/14/french-more-accepting-of-infidelity-than-people-in-other-countries/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/14/french-more...), it would reduce the power that "the other woman" has... which might actually discourage some from assuming that role.

spodek 5y ago

Can you describe the power imbalance? Within the company, in principle he has authority, but for one thing, he can't act with impunity. He's responsible to the Board and shareholders, so if he promoted, demoted, fired, or otherwise exercised that authority unfairly, he could be held accountable, so that power is limited. For another thing, his authority is only one source of power. She can go to the media, where even allegations could inflict huge damage. In this case, the employee seems to hold tremendous power since she could publicize a consensual (with her), though extramarital (not likely, though possibly, consenting from his wife) relationship in the workplace. I'm not saying good, bad, right, or wrong. I'm just wondering what the power imbalance is in practice.

_Understated_ 5y ago
>He's responsible to the Board and shareholders, so if he promoted, demoted, fired, or otherwise exercised that authority unfairly, he could be held accountable, so that power is limited. All true, but he could say to her boss "I don't like her, make life hard so she leaves". He doesn't even need to ask for her to be fired, just make life hell: move her desk near the toilets, don't invite her to meetings, give her the shit jobs etc. What if you were her boss? Would you tell the guy at the top "No"? Even if you had the balls, what's to stop him then going to your boss and pointing the finger at you? It has all sorts of repercussions.

ObserverNeutral 5y ago

> If there is a power imbalance it is not appropriate. And it seems that this was the conclusion of the board. Who should Bill Gates date in order for it not being a power imbalance? Only the Queen of England comes to mind, maybe Lady Diana back in the 90s.