4 ms·

Sounds like it was consensual and between adults. People need to stop worrying about other people’s sex life.

by jdmoreira 5y ago

louwrentius 5y ago
If there is a power imbalance it is not appropriate. And it seems that this was the conclusion of the board.
- f6v 5y ago
  It’s peculiar that corporations decide what’s appropriate and not, even in your love life.
  - louwrentius 5y ago
    It is very common that relations with subordinates are not permissible exactly because of the power imbalance. If (s)he says no, what could the repercussion be?
    - the-dude 5y ago
      HR is not there for you, but for the well being of the corp. In the same vein relations between managers and subordinates are not permitted, not to protect the well being of the subordinate, but to protect the well being of the corp.
      - throwaway8581 5y ago
        Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - austincheney 5y ago
    It’s not peculiar if the sexual relationship is intertwined with a different legally recognized relationship status, such as employment, at which point there may be a criminal violation of harassment or assault. Criminal violations, especially if repeated, can harm a company’s reputation and open the company to various forms of civil litigation.
    - throwaway8581 5y ago
      There is nothing in the laws of this country that makes an employee/manager sexual relationship a criminal offense. There is no criminal law against "sexual harassment," which exists as a legal concept only for purposes of employment discrimination lawsuits. The only legal consequence of a manager/employee relationship is that the employee can easily turn around and sue the company for sexual harassment or wrongful termination by convincing a jury that something more happened, e.g. that the manager conditioned promotion on sex, fired the employee for ending the relationship, etc.
      - austincheney 5y ago
        If you know that is a high risk scenario then the company’s legal advisors should put rules and enforcement in place to forbid such relationships and thereby transfer liability to offending employees.
        throwaway8581 5y ago
        There is no individual liability for sexual harassment in the US, only for employers. Anyway, my point was just to respond to someone claiming there was criminal liability.
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      That is tough and bad for the company... Wherever love falls is my opinion on it. I think someone in leadership position has to recuse himself from managing their love affair, but that would be his decision. Military can be another exception. Would never date my boss though if I didn't have an exit plan. Doubt you would ever get happy if such a relationship fails.
  - pmarreck 5y ago
    She started making demands. Some of those, if public, would impact the perception of Microsoft and the board. It is therefore in the board's interest to be concerned. If we took on more of a French attitude about extramarital behavior (see: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/14/french-more-accepting-of-infidelity-than-people-in-other-countries/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/14/french-more...), it would reduce the power that "the other woman" has... which might actually discourage some from assuming that role.
- spodek 5y ago
  Can you describe the power imbalance? Within the company, in principle he has authority, but for one thing, he can't act with impunity. He's responsible to the Board and shareholders, so if he promoted, demoted, fired, or otherwise exercised that authority unfairly, he could be held accountable, so that power is limited. For another thing, his authority is only one source of power. She can go to the media, where even allegations could inflict huge damage. In this case, the employee seems to hold tremendous power since she could publicize a consensual (with her), though extramarital (not likely, though possibly, consenting from his wife) relationship in the workplace. I'm not saying good, bad, right, or wrong. I'm just wondering what the power imbalance is in practice.
  - _Understated_ 5y ago
    >He's responsible to the Board and shareholders, so if he promoted, demoted, fired, or otherwise exercised that authority unfairly, he could be held accountable, so that power is limited. All true, but he could say to her boss "I don't like her, make life hard so she leaves". He doesn't even need to ask for her to be fired, just make life hell: move her desk near the toilets, don't invite her to meetings, give her the shit jobs etc. What if you were her boss? Would you tell the guy at the top "No"? Even if you had the balls, what's to stop him then going to your boss and pointing the finger at you? It has all sorts of repercussions.
- ObserverNeutral 5y ago
  > If there is a power imbalance it is not appropriate. And it seems that this was the conclusion of the board. Who should Bill Gates date in order for it not being a power imbalance? Only the Queen of England comes to mind, maybe Lady Diana back in the 90s.
GekkePrutser 5y ago
Agreed. If the person wasn't a direct report (very unlikely as he was only a board member, not an active employee) it's not an ethics issue for the company. It's not nice to his wife but this is between him and her.
- louwrentius 5y ago
  This doesn’t work like that, he’s the owner, there is always a power imbalance with any Microsoft employee.
- GVIrish 5y ago
  The alleged affair would have occurred while he was still CEO. It's definitely an issue if the CEO is having affairs with employees.
pfortuny 5y ago
Not between boss and employee, that is not “just sex”.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- codeflow2202 5y ago
  It is. Unless he forced her, but we aren't talking about rape here.
- danbruc 5y ago
  There is no reason why one could not separate work and a relationship. That will of course not work for everyone but you can not simply generalize and assert that it can not work in general.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sokoloff 5y ago
In general, I am aligned. In the specific case of an employee and CEO (or board member), it seems that having a policy against that is reasonable. We don’t let prisoners and prison guards fraternize. We don’t let military officers fraternize with enlisted soldiers (or NCOs with junior enlisted). If I lead a team and I’m sleeping with one of them, it’s practically impossible for everyone to feel like they’re being treated equally.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  Prison and the military are both extreme environments. A business should obviously not be aspiring to be that restrictive.
spodek 5y ago
Did his wife consent? She may have, but if she didn't and he publicly vowed monogamy to her, it calls his character into question.
YinglingLight 5y ago
Give me a break. Middle class people like us get divorced when a partner cheats. Middle class people like us get 'asked to quit' during boss-employee relationships. You and myself cannot FATHOM the amount of money involved at the level of Bill Gates. Everyone in this thread is making that fallacy. Ask yourself, if there was serious reasons for Microsoft cutting ties with Bill Gates, if there was some investment sell-off loopholes that Bill Gates could exploit by getting divorced, wouldn't you simply tell the public it was for a reason that Middle Class America can fully swallow?

Sounds like it was consensual and between adults. People need to stop worrying about other people’s sex life.

louwrentius 5y ago

If there is a power imbalance it is not appropriate. And it seems that this was the conclusion of the board.

f6v 5y ago
It’s peculiar that corporations decide what’s appropriate and not, even in your love life.
- louwrentius 5y ago
  It is very common that relations with subordinates are not permissible exactly because of the power imbalance. If (s)he says no, what could the repercussion be?
  - the-dude 5y ago
    HR is not there for you, but for the well being of the corp. In the same vein relations between managers and subordinates are not permitted, not to protect the well being of the subordinate, but to protect the well being of the corp.
    - throwaway8581 5y ago
      Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- austincheney 5y ago
  It’s not peculiar if the sexual relationship is intertwined with a different legally recognized relationship status, such as employment, at which point there may be a criminal violation of harassment or assault. Criminal violations, especially if repeated, can harm a company’s reputation and open the company to various forms of civil litigation.
  - throwaway8581 5y ago
    There is nothing in the laws of this country that makes an employee/manager sexual relationship a criminal offense. There is no criminal law against "sexual harassment," which exists as a legal concept only for purposes of employment discrimination lawsuits. The only legal consequence of a manager/employee relationship is that the employee can easily turn around and sue the company for sexual harassment or wrongful termination by convincing a jury that something more happened, e.g. that the manager conditioned promotion on sex, fired the employee for ending the relationship, etc.
    - austincheney 5y ago
      If you know that is a high risk scenario then the company’s legal advisors should put rules and enforcement in place to forbid such relationships and thereby transfer liability to offending employees.
      - throwaway8581 5y ago
        There is no individual liability for sexual harassment in the US, only for employers. Anyway, my point was just to respond to someone claiming there was criminal liability.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    That is tough and bad for the company... Wherever love falls is my opinion on it. I think someone in leadership position has to recuse himself from managing their love affair, but that would be his decision. Military can be another exception. Would never date my boss though if I didn't have an exit plan. Doubt you would ever get happy if such a relationship fails.
- pmarreck 5y ago
  She started making demands. Some of those, if public, would impact the perception of Microsoft and the board. It is therefore in the board's interest to be concerned. If we took on more of a French attitude about extramarital behavior (see: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/14/french-more-accepting-of-infidelity-than-people-in-other-countries/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/14/french-more...), it would reduce the power that "the other woman" has... which might actually discourage some from assuming that role.
spodek 5y ago
Can you describe the power imbalance? Within the company, in principle he has authority, but for one thing, he can't act with impunity. He's responsible to the Board and shareholders, so if he promoted, demoted, fired, or otherwise exercised that authority unfairly, he could be held accountable, so that power is limited. For another thing, his authority is only one source of power. She can go to the media, where even allegations could inflict huge damage. In this case, the employee seems to hold tremendous power since she could publicize a consensual (with her), though extramarital (not likely, though possibly, consenting from his wife) relationship in the workplace. I'm not saying good, bad, right, or wrong. I'm just wondering what the power imbalance is in practice.
- _Understated_ 5y ago
  >He's responsible to the Board and shareholders, so if he promoted, demoted, fired, or otherwise exercised that authority unfairly, he could be held accountable, so that power is limited. All true, but he could say to her boss "I don't like her, make life hard so she leaves". He doesn't even need to ask for her to be fired, just make life hell: move her desk near the toilets, don't invite her to meetings, give her the shit jobs etc. What if you were her boss? Would you tell the guy at the top "No"? Even if you had the balls, what's to stop him then going to your boss and pointing the finger at you? It has all sorts of repercussions.
ObserverNeutral 5y ago
> If there is a power imbalance it is not appropriate. And it seems that this was the conclusion of the board. Who should Bill Gates date in order for it not being a power imbalance? Only the Queen of England comes to mind, maybe Lady Diana back in the 90s.

GekkePrutser 5y ago

Agreed. If the person wasn't a direct report (very unlikely as he was only a board member, not an active employee) it's not an ethics issue for the company. It's not nice to his wife but this is between him and her.

louwrentius 5y ago
This doesn’t work like that, he’s the owner, there is always a power imbalance with any Microsoft employee.
GVIrish 5y ago
The alleged affair would have occurred while he was still CEO. It's definitely an issue if the CEO is having affairs with employees.

pfortuny 5y ago

Not between boss and employee, that is not “just sex”.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
codeflow2202 5y ago
It is. Unless he forced her, but we aren't talking about rape here.
danbruc 5y ago
There is no reason why one could not separate work and a relationship. That will of course not work for everyone but you can not simply generalize and assert that it can not work in general.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sokoloff 5y ago

In general, I am aligned. In the specific case of an employee and CEO (or board member), it seems that having a policy against that is reasonable. We don’t let prisoners and prison guards fraternize. We don’t let military officers fraternize with enlisted soldiers (or NCOs with junior enlisted). If I lead a team and I’m sleeping with one of them, it’s practically impossible for everyone to feel like they’re being treated equally.

chrisseaton 5y ago
Prison and the military are both extreme environments. A business should obviously not be aspiring to be that restrictive.

spodek 5y ago

Did his wife consent? She may have, but if she didn't and he publicly vowed monogamy to her, it calls his character into question.

YinglingLight 5y ago

Give me a break. Middle class people like us get divorced when a partner cheats. Middle class people like us get 'asked to quit' during boss-employee relationships. You and myself cannot FATHOM the amount of money involved at the level of Bill Gates. Everyone in this thread is making that fallacy. Ask yourself, if there was serious reasons for Microsoft cutting ties with Bill Gates, if there was some investment sell-off loopholes that Bill Gates could exploit by getting divorced, wouldn't you simply tell the public it was for a reason that Middle Class America can fully swallow?