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Count of covid cases and deaths has been highly politicized and manipulated in Florida to the point of firing people for reporting them. Not sure how possible

Count of covid cases and deaths has been highly politicized and manipulated in Florida to the point of firing people for reporting them. Not sure how possible it is to get accurate info in this environment.

jmahyoung 5y ago
Somewhat related, on the opposite point. Elon Musk among others said the counting of deaths was manipulated upwards, with comorbidity being counted as a COVID death even when the patient had 2 or more serious health conditions already. I think there is a desire to overcount which must not be glossed over either.
- belltaco 5y ago
  >I think there is a desire to overcount which must not be glossed over either So there was overcounting, but somehow excess mortality in 2020-2021 is higher than in normal years? How? >with comorbidity being counted as a COVID death even when the patient had 2 or more serious health conditions already A high percentage of people in the US have "serious health conditions" like diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure etc. If Covid accelerated their deaths then it should be counted as a covid death because they would likely be otherwise alive now. If you want to get pedantic there's a measure called QALY(quality adjusted life years). Musk said there would be zero cases in the US by April 2020 among other dumb predictions, so I don't think he's the best person to go to for Covid related information since his domain is technology and not epidemiology. https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/03/13/elon-musks-false-covid-predictions-a-timeline/?sh=5acaf495b6d2 https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/03/13/elon-musks-...
  - briandear 5y ago
    > So there was overcounting, but somehow excess mortality in 2020-2021 is higher than in normal years? How? People dying of heart attacks because they didn’t seek timely care because of fear of going to the hospital. Medical screenings postponed. Undetected cancers. Suicides. There is a direct correlation between unemployment rates and disease. My annual physical, due in July 2020 was cancelled. How many other people’s were as well? Also one also should note increases in deaths of despair. That’s a real thing. Excess deaths can’t be called “covid,” without proof that they were. How would else know Covid was the cause and not the flu? Are we just assuming excess deaths were Covid? The uncomfortable truth is that lockdown proponents don’t want to admit that their policies may have caused more damage than the disease from which they were claiming to protect us. I don’t know the answer. My point is that excess deaths aren’t necessarily Covid deaths. That’s an assumption, not a fact.
    - belltaco 5y ago
      >Medical screenings postponed. Undetected cancers Most of these will show up at a later time. And some of them were caused by hospital overcrowding, doctors trying to save themselves etc. not lockdown. >Suicides. Suicides are down. >My annual physical, due in July 2020 was cancelled. How many other people’s were as well? How many people die within a year due to something that's caught in a physical? I'd say barely any. If you're counting them then you should also count the lives saved by reduced pollution due to the lockdowns. >Also one also should note increases in deaths of despair. That’s a real thing. Suicides are down. >Excess deaths can’t be called “covid,” without proof that they were. How would else know Covid was the cause and not the flu? Because flu deaths are included in normal rate of deaths. If you're saying there are multiple times the number flu deaths than during a normal year with no measures to contain it, and it doesn't show up on the yearly disease surveillance, then you're arguing in bad faith. >The uncomfortable truth is that lockdown proponents don’t want to admit that their policies may have caused more damage than the disease from which they were claiming to protect us. The uncomfortable truth that pro-covid(and anti-vax people) don't want to admit is that their attitude of calling covid just a flu or something less harmful has caused death, disease, hospital overcrowding, increased number of lockdowns due to increased cases/deaths, and damage from the lockdowns. Compare the economies of countries that strict lockdowns but were able to open up sooner like Australia, New Zealand, China etc. Do you think people will keep participating in the economy and crowded events etc. at the same rate if there are scenes like this at hospitals? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Y1YakG60s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Y1YakG60s Now that things are opening back up, if there is hospital overcrowding and more covid deaths and cases due to the pro-covid and anti-vaccine people, then who is to blame for the economic damage and death from ensuing lockdowns?
- andrei_says_ 5y ago
  I’ve been wondering recently... should I appoint ELon Musk as an authority on everything or not? The jury’s still out in my case.
dabbledash 5y ago
That’s why overall excess deaths are a better measure. You really can’t game them.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  I think it’s still hard because deaths for almost everything else go down when people aren’t out getting in car crashes, picking the regular flu, etc etc.
  - virtuallynathan 5y ago
    Automotive fatalities were actually up substantially in 2020.
  - throwaway316943 5y ago
    There should still be a difference between open vs close then since they open approach would still have people going out driving and getting the flu.
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    Also, locking down everyone (and its economic consequences) probably had / will have an effect on number of suicides (not sure if negative - I can't stand it, I'll kill myself - or positive - I can't stand it but life will be better after covid)
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      Surprisingly not: "Widespread assumptions that suicide rates would increase during the pandemic are not supported by the growing amount of evidence coming out of Canadian provinces and other jurisdictions around the world, say experts who study the topic." https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/suicides-alberta-bc-saskatchewan-canada-2020-no-increase-1.5902908 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/suicides-alberta-bc-s...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
chmod600 5y ago
Do you have a reliable source that the covid deaths in FL were manipulated downward?
- edoceo 5y ago
  This one seems a good place to start: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-ss-prem-covid-deaths-florida-election-20201216-f4kgezjf4rf75ppumt4omxfsxy-story.html https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-ss-prem-covid...
  - chmod600 5y ago
    Even if true, that doesn't suggest that the overall numbers are artificially low. That represents a reporting time gap, the deaths were still presumably counted correctly. I think we need something much stronger before we enter into evidence such a powerful allegation. EDIT: http://www.healthdata.org/special-analysis/estimation-excess-mortality-due-covid-19-and-scalars-reported-covid-19-deaths http://www.healthdata.org/special-analysis/estimation-excess... seems to suggest California covid deaths were underreported to a greater degree than Florida. That would be even stronger evidence that Florida had better outcomes compared with the disruption.
throwaway8581 5y ago
Only Rebekah Jones, who left her last three jobs with criminal charges, has claimed that. None of her claims have ever been substantiated by a single legit source. Only followers of fringe left wing Twitter believe any of that.
briandear 5y ago
The firing of that official — there is a lot more to that story. https://tallahasseereports.com/2020/05/20/rebekah-jones-firing-is-the-covid-clickbait-the-media-dreams-of-but-its-all-fake/ https://tallahasseereports.com/2020/05/20/rebekah-jones-firi...
nradov 5y ago
Please stop spreading misinformation. Rebekah Jones was not fired for reporting data manipulation. She is simply a liar. All of her key claims have been debunked. Please stop spreading misinformation. Rebekah Jones wasn't a data scientist and was never asked to falsify any numbers. She is simply a liar. https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/05/rebekah-jones-the-covid-whistleblower-who-wasnt/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/05/rebekah-jones-the-cov...
- MagnumOpus 5y ago
  Claiming that on the back of an opinion piece in a partisan publication which seems not at all interested in neutral fact finding but revels in partisanship and plays this up as a political issue does not bolster your argument's credibility. Indeed it weakens it. I say that as a non-American who doesn't have a horse in the race.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Which facts in that article are incorrect?

jmahyoung 5y ago

Somewhat related, on the opposite point. Elon Musk among others said the counting of deaths was manipulated upwards, with comorbidity being counted as a COVID death even when the patient had 2 or more serious health conditions already. I think there is a desire to overcount which must not be glossed over either.

belltaco 5y ago
>I think there is a desire to overcount which must not be glossed over either So there was overcounting, but somehow excess mortality in 2020-2021 is higher than in normal years? How? >with comorbidity being counted as a COVID death even when the patient had 2 or more serious health conditions already A high percentage of people in the US have "serious health conditions" like diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure etc. If Covid accelerated their deaths then it should be counted as a covid death because they would likely be otherwise alive now. If you want to get pedantic there's a measure called QALY(quality adjusted life years). Musk said there would be zero cases in the US by April 2020 among other dumb predictions, so I don't think he's the best person to go to for Covid related information since his domain is technology and not epidemiology. https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/03/13/elon-musks-false-covid-predictions-a-timeline/?sh=5acaf495b6d2 https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/03/13/elon-musks-...
- briandear 5y ago
  > So there was overcounting, but somehow excess mortality in 2020-2021 is higher than in normal years? How? People dying of heart attacks because they didn’t seek timely care because of fear of going to the hospital. Medical screenings postponed. Undetected cancers. Suicides. There is a direct correlation between unemployment rates and disease. My annual physical, due in July 2020 was cancelled. How many other people’s were as well? Also one also should note increases in deaths of despair. That’s a real thing. Excess deaths can’t be called “covid,” without proof that they were. How would else know Covid was the cause and not the flu? Are we just assuming excess deaths were Covid? The uncomfortable truth is that lockdown proponents don’t want to admit that their policies may have caused more damage than the disease from which they were claiming to protect us. I don’t know the answer. My point is that excess deaths aren’t necessarily Covid deaths. That’s an assumption, not a fact.
  - belltaco 5y ago
    >Medical screenings postponed. Undetected cancers Most of these will show up at a later time. And some of them were caused by hospital overcrowding, doctors trying to save themselves etc. not lockdown. >Suicides. Suicides are down. >My annual physical, due in July 2020 was cancelled. How many other people’s were as well? How many people die within a year due to something that's caught in a physical? I'd say barely any. If you're counting them then you should also count the lives saved by reduced pollution due to the lockdowns. >Also one also should note increases in deaths of despair. That’s a real thing. Suicides are down. >Excess deaths can’t be called “covid,” without proof that they were. How would else know Covid was the cause and not the flu? Because flu deaths are included in normal rate of deaths. If you're saying there are multiple times the number flu deaths than during a normal year with no measures to contain it, and it doesn't show up on the yearly disease surveillance, then you're arguing in bad faith. >The uncomfortable truth is that lockdown proponents don’t want to admit that their policies may have caused more damage than the disease from which they were claiming to protect us. The uncomfortable truth that pro-covid(and anti-vax people) don't want to admit is that their attitude of calling covid just a flu or something less harmful has caused death, disease, hospital overcrowding, increased number of lockdowns due to increased cases/deaths, and damage from the lockdowns. Compare the economies of countries that strict lockdowns but were able to open up sooner like Australia, New Zealand, China etc. Do you think people will keep participating in the economy and crowded events etc. at the same rate if there are scenes like this at hospitals? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Y1YakG60s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Y1YakG60s Now that things are opening back up, if there is hospital overcrowding and more covid deaths and cases due to the pro-covid and anti-vaccine people, then who is to blame for the economic damage and death from ensuing lockdowns?
andrei_says_ 5y ago
I’ve been wondering recently... should I appoint ELon Musk as an authority on everything or not? The jury’s still out in my case.

dabbledash 5y ago

That’s why overall excess deaths are a better measure. You really can’t game them.

mikepurvis 5y ago
I think it’s still hard because deaths for almost everything else go down when people aren’t out getting in car crashes, picking the regular flu, etc etc.
- virtuallynathan 5y ago
  Automotive fatalities were actually up substantially in 2020.
- throwaway316943 5y ago
  There should still be a difference between open vs close then since they open approach would still have people going out driving and getting the flu.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  Also, locking down everyone (and its economic consequences) probably had / will have an effect on number of suicides (not sure if negative - I can't stand it, I'll kill myself - or positive - I can't stand it but life will be better after covid)
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    Surprisingly not: "Widespread assumptions that suicide rates would increase during the pandemic are not supported by the growing amount of evidence coming out of Canadian provinces and other jurisdictions around the world, say experts who study the topic." https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/suicides-alberta-bc-saskatchewan-canada-2020-no-increase-1.5902908 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/suicides-alberta-bc-s...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

chmod600 5y ago

Do you have a reliable source that the covid deaths in FL were manipulated downward?

edoceo 5y ago
This one seems a good place to start: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-ss-prem-covid-deaths-florida-election-20201216-f4kgezjf4rf75ppumt4omxfsxy-story.html https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-ss-prem-covid...
- chmod600 5y ago
  Even if true, that doesn't suggest that the overall numbers are artificially low. That represents a reporting time gap, the deaths were still presumably counted correctly. I think we need something much stronger before we enter into evidence such a powerful allegation. EDIT: http://www.healthdata.org/special-analysis/estimation-excess-mortality-due-covid-19-and-scalars-reported-covid-19-deaths http://www.healthdata.org/special-analysis/estimation-excess... seems to suggest California covid deaths were underreported to a greater degree than Florida. That would be even stronger evidence that Florida had better outcomes compared with the disruption.

throwaway8581 5y ago

Only Rebekah Jones, who left her last three jobs with criminal charges, has claimed that. None of her claims have ever been substantiated by a single legit source. Only followers of fringe left wing Twitter believe any of that.

briandear 5y ago

The firing of that official — there is a lot more to that story. https://tallahasseereports.com/2020/05/20/rebekah-jones-firing-is-the-covid-clickbait-the-media-dreams-of-but-its-all-fake/ https://tallahasseereports.com/2020/05/20/rebekah-jones-firi...

nradov 5y ago

Please stop spreading misinformation. Rebekah Jones was not fired for reporting data manipulation. She is simply a liar. All of her key claims have been debunked. Please stop spreading misinformation. Rebekah Jones wasn't a data scientist and was never asked to falsify any numbers. She is simply a liar. https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/05/rebekah-jones-the-covid-whistleblower-who-wasnt/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/05/rebekah-jones-the-cov...

MagnumOpus 5y ago
Claiming that on the back of an opinion piece in a partisan publication which seems not at all interested in neutral fact finding but revels in partisanship and plays this up as a political issue does not bolster your argument's credibility. Indeed it weakens it. I say that as a non-American who doesn't have a horse in the race.
- nradov 5y ago
  Which facts in that article are incorrect?