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I don't think so. > German Chancellor opposes US troop withdrawal plan https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/german-chancellor-opposes-us-troop-withdrawal-plan/193

by csomar 6y ago

I don't think so. > German Chancellor opposes US troop withdrawal plan https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/german-chancellor-opposes-us-troop-withdrawal-plan/1930332 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/german-chancellor-opposes-us... Without having a powerful army, Europe is just an order from being invaded by Russia.

kwere 6y ago
thats silly
orbifold 6y ago
Sure because Russia has a long history of attacking Western Europe unprovoked. Napoleon, WW1, UK US intervention in the Revolution, Polish Invasion and WW2 clearly had Russia as an Aggressor.
- Paradigma11 6y ago
  Or more recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring or those russian soldiers on holiday in the ukraine.
  - paganel 6y ago
    In all fairness OP was mentioning Western Europe. One could argue about the validity of ideologically partitioning Europe into an Eastern and Western part (I know I'm also guilty of that) but that's another discussion.
    - kingsuper20 6y ago
      I'd say that was done fairly organically given the split between ethnicities and Orthodox vs. Catholic churches. Ukraine seems to straddle one of those boundaries.
- frant-hartm 6y ago
  In WW2 Russia actually was one of the aggressors.
  - vasac 6y ago
    Was Poland too?
    - lumost 6y ago
      Russia invaded Poland in coordination with Germany as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact at the start of the war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pac...
      - vasac 6y ago
        I wasn't asking who was invaded by Russia but whether Poland was aggressor too? And here's the answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts#Annexations_by_Poland_in_1938 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_bo...
    - quickthrowman 6y ago
      I think you may need to revisit WW2 history, Poland was invaded by the USSR and Germany as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
      - vasac 6y ago
        Nope, it's you who needs to revisit WW2 history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts#Annexations_by_Poland_in_1938 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_bo...
    - kingsuper20 6y ago
      Hey, it's complicated (as usual). Check out all of the minor wars Poland was involved in between 1919 and 1938.
- eloff 6y ago
  I think you don't know your Russian history. That territory has usually been controlled by an aggressive, expansionist regime. How did you think it got to be the largest country on earth? It's very strongly related to the geography of the region.
NicoJuicy 6y ago
You are severely overestimating Russia's army and underestimating Europe's. Russia isn't even in the same league of spending power and the Soviet army of the past was way stronger. While Russia spends a lot of money on their army ( % wise), they don't have the resources to renew it. What's left is a lot of old gear and some renewed one. As a counter perspective, Ukraine would have made it's naval fleet completely unusable, as it needs to pass that country for getting anywhere. And Europe ( in the last 30 years) came within missile range of Moscow, since the fall of the USSR. The propaganda of Russia is mostly power related, but they are certainly not as powerful as they seem. And the cards don't look that great too. A lot of their resources depend on oil/gas purchases from Europe and Europe is investing in alternative sources, while Russia can't raise the prices for their citizens/neighboring countries. Eg. The pipeline Russia mostly invested in to Germany has been halted, because of Alexei Navalny: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/gas-pipeline-nord-stream-2-links-germany-russia-splits-europe https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/gas-pipeline-nord... And last but not least, as a belgian citizen, i appreciate US presence and have no desire for foreign troops to withdraw. We all share ( mostly) the same/similar culture and perception.
- vasac 6y ago
  Russia buys most of their arms from their own industry so while their military budget in $ is far smaller than the US they get more bang for the buck (or in their case ruble). So while they nominally spend ~$60B per year when accounted for PPP (purchasing power parity) that looks more like equivalent of $150B (or $200). Things are obviously more complex than this but it's obvious that while they spend similar $ amount as UK or France they maintain significantly larger military. > As a counter perspective, Ukraine would have made it's naval fleet completely unusable, as it needs to pass that country for getting anywhere. They had open access to the Black Sea even without Crimea, I'm not sure how Ukraine could block them then or now? btw pipeline isn't halted (so far): https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-news/natural-gas/051021-just-100-km-left-to-lay-of-nord-stream-2-gas-pipeline-ambassador https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-ne...
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
You can't seriously believe Europe is defenseless without America. Germany, the UK and France are among the most powerful militaries in the world, with economies that trump Russia, and enough nuclear weapons to flatten it a hundred times over.
- renw0rp 6y ago
  The countries you mentioned are as prepared for war as was France in 1939/1940
  - oblio 6y ago
    France was prepared, they just messed up the strategy. But they had the equipment, the manpower, the army was mobilized entirely after 1939, they had battle plans, etc.
- rjsw 6y ago
  Germany doesn't have a powerful military or its own nuclear weapons.
- konschubert 6y ago
  The German military has issues ordering guns that shoot straight, I doubt they can project any kind of deterrence against, say, nuclear threats.
- rblatz 6y ago
  And add up all their militaries and they are still dwarfed by the US military.
_delirium 6y ago
My read on Germany specifically is that it's less about Russian invasion worries and more about domestic economic politics. The bases are important economically to the towns/regions they're in, and closing them is unpopular in those areas, similar to how choosing when/if to close US bases in the US is controversial (https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45705.html https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45705.html).
throw0101a 6y ago
Going by military spending, any single EU country spends less than Russia, but 2+ spend more: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_... Of course raw numbers don't tell the whole story: * https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/05/03/russian-defense-spending-is-much-larger-and-more-sustainable-than-it-seems/ https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/05/03/ru... * https://warontherocks.com/2019/12/why-russian-military-expenditure-is-much-higher-than-commonly-understood-as-is-chinas/ https://warontherocks.com/2019/12/why-russian-military-expen...

by csomar 6y ago

kwere 6y ago

thats silly

orbifold 6y ago

Sure because Russia has a long history of attacking Western Europe unprovoked. Napoleon, WW1, UK US intervention in the Revolution, Polish Invasion and WW2 clearly had Russia as an Aggressor.

Paradigma11 6y ago
Or more recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring or those russian soldiers on holiday in the ukraine.
- paganel 6y ago
  In all fairness OP was mentioning Western Europe. One could argue about the validity of ideologically partitioning Europe into an Eastern and Western part (I know I'm also guilty of that) but that's another discussion.
  - kingsuper20 6y ago
    I'd say that was done fairly organically given the split between ethnicities and Orthodox vs. Catholic churches. Ukraine seems to straddle one of those boundaries.
frant-hartm 6y ago
In WW2 Russia actually was one of the aggressors.
- vasac 6y ago
  Was Poland too?
  - lumost 6y ago
    Russia invaded Poland in coordination with Germany as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact at the start of the war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pac...
    - vasac 6y ago
      I wasn't asking who was invaded by Russia but whether Poland was aggressor too? And here's the answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts#Annexations_by_Poland_in_1938 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_bo...
  - quickthrowman 6y ago
    I think you may need to revisit WW2 history, Poland was invaded by the USSR and Germany as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
    - vasac 6y ago
      Nope, it's you who needs to revisit WW2 history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts#Annexations_by_Poland_in_1938 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_bo...
  - kingsuper20 6y ago
    Hey, it's complicated (as usual). Check out all of the minor wars Poland was involved in between 1919 and 1938.
eloff 6y ago
I think you don't know your Russian history. That territory has usually been controlled by an aggressive, expansionist regime. How did you think it got to be the largest country on earth? It's very strongly related to the geography of the region.

NicoJuicy 6y ago

You are severely overestimating Russia's army and underestimating Europe's. Russia isn't even in the same league of spending power and the Soviet army of the past was way stronger. While Russia spends a lot of money on their army ( % wise), they don't have the resources to renew it. What's left is a lot of old gear and some renewed one. As a counter perspective, Ukraine would have made it's naval fleet completely unusable, as it needs to pass that country for getting anywhere. And Europe ( in the last 30 years) came within missile range of Moscow, since the fall of the USSR. The propaganda of Russia is mostly power related, but they are certainly not as powerful as they seem. And the cards don't look that great too. A lot of their resources depend on oil/gas purchases from Europe and Europe is investing in alternative sources, while Russia can't raise the prices for their citizens/neighboring countries. Eg. The pipeline Russia mostly invested in to Germany has been halted, because of Alexei Navalny: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/gas-pipeline-nord-stream-2-links-germany-russia-splits-europe https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/gas-pipeline-nord... And last but not least, as a belgian citizen, i appreciate US presence and have no desire for foreign troops to withdraw. We all share ( mostly) the same/similar culture and perception.

vasac 6y ago
Russia buys most of their arms from their own industry so while their military budget in $ is far smaller than the US they get more bang for the buck (or in their case ruble). So while they nominally spend ~$60B per year when accounted for PPP (purchasing power parity) that looks more like equivalent of $150B (or $200). Things are obviously more complex than this but it's obvious that while they spend similar $ amount as UK or France they maintain significantly larger military. > As a counter perspective, Ukraine would have made it's naval fleet completely unusable, as it needs to pass that country for getting anywhere. They had open access to the Black Sea even without Crimea, I'm not sure how Ukraine could block them then or now? btw pipeline isn't halted (so far): https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-news/natural-gas/051021-just-100-km-left-to-lay-of-nord-stream-2-gas-pipeline-ambassador https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-ne...
- NicoJuicy 5y ago

ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago

You can't seriously believe Europe is defenseless without America. Germany, the UK and France are among the most powerful militaries in the world, with economies that trump Russia, and enough nuclear weapons to flatten it a hundred times over.

renw0rp 6y ago
The countries you mentioned are as prepared for war as was France in 1939/1940
- oblio 6y ago
  France was prepared, they just messed up the strategy. But they had the equipment, the manpower, the army was mobilized entirely after 1939, they had battle plans, etc.
rjsw 6y ago
Germany doesn't have a powerful military or its own nuclear weapons.
konschubert 6y ago
The German military has issues ordering guns that shoot straight, I doubt they can project any kind of deterrence against, say, nuclear threats.
rblatz 6y ago
And add up all their militaries and they are still dwarfed by the US military.

_delirium 6y ago

My read on Germany specifically is that it's less about Russian invasion worries and more about domestic economic politics. The bases are important economically to the towns/regions they're in, and closing them is unpopular in those areas, similar to how choosing when/if to close US bases in the US is controversial (https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45705.html https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45705.html).

throw0101a 6y ago

Going by military spending, any single EU country spends less than Russia, but 2+ spend more: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_... Of course raw numbers don't tell the whole story: * https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/05/03/russian-defense-spending-is-much-larger-and-more-sustainable-than-it-seems/ https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/05/03/ru... * https://warontherocks.com/2019/12/why-russian-military-expenditure-is-much-higher-than-commonly-understood-as-is-chinas/ https://warontherocks.com/2019/12/why-russian-military-expen...