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Putting human well-being above animals in work, sustenance, and sustainability is not odd or grotesque. Animal welfare secures the future of humanity, which see

Putting human well-being above animals in work, sustenance, and sustainability is not odd or grotesque. Animal welfare secures the future of humanity, which seems enlightened to me, though the author doesn't engage in that pretense or emotional language.

ericffr 5y ago
I disagree. Killing animals just because humans have been doing is not the answer. I'd rather go with plant-based diet than ignoring the harm even small family farms do to animals, and the environment.
- readflaggedcomm 5y ago
  Animal husbandry is an answer to human survival, among other things. Does there have to be one answer, to such a strong degree, that this mode of survival needs to be treated like a science-fiction oddity?
- etrabroline 5y ago
  I can respect that. Slaughterhouses are not pretty places. The weirdness is when you consider that the animals only exist because people raised them for their meat, is it really less cruel for these animals to never exist at all? I think we have to accept that both man and nature can and must be cruel at times.
  - filoeleven 5y ago
    > is it really less cruel for these animals to never exist at all? I’ve seen this question asked time and time again, and it makes no sense to me. People commit suicide out of (often transient) emotional pain, and less frequently out of physical pain. If we who have the capability to envision a better future decide to opt out of suffering via death, why do you imagine that a chronically-suffering animal’s life is better than not facing that suffering in the first place?
    - etrabroline 5y ago
      >chronically-suffering animal’s life I don't think most farm animals are suffering through their entire life. They seem pretty all right to me. Factory chicken farms should be banned but not all meat.
      - orwin 5y ago
        Well, i've seen pigs pens, i've seen an old sow half eaten by her children, i assure you, even the worst chicken farm is nothing compared to an average pig factory.
      - filoeleven 5y ago
        All factory farms should be banned. You mentioned chickens, a sibling comment mentioned pigs, and I’ll add cows. They’re all horrible places. Animals “raised” in factory farms are better off never having existed. Small farms are a different story and a mixed bag.
  - causasui 5y ago
    > is it really less cruel for these animals to never exist at all? Yes, without question.
- filoeleven 5y ago
  I also advocate for a plant-based diet, but your comment misses something about it mentioned in the article: > Often, pea, soy and potato crops don’t resemble natural ecosystems — they are vast monocultures that rely on large machinery, intensive processing and global distribution, just like the industrial system that produces meat on a large scale. So yes, let’s end factory farming, and start with the factory farming of animals. Let’s also not pretend that large-scale monocular farming of plants is a silver bullet. Regenerative farming is the thing to aim for at the moment. That will reduce both awful conditions for animals and the harm to our ecosystems. It affects animal factory farms to a greater extent. Fighting for a globally plant-based food source can be done in parallel, just don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
nsonha 5y ago
Human can survive well without meat. Even if you don't want to go full vegan, fish is another option, fish are way less intelligent than farm animals. I'm all for human survival and well-being, but this is more like convenience: it tastes good, easy to get and cheap. We can at least change to make it not cheap and easy anymore. Values in our economy are artificial anyway. It's not like we have much else to innovate for the next centuries, besides making more internet apps and going to Mars.
- open0 5y ago
  > fish are way less intelligent than farm animals There is no concrete evidence of this. A lot of sea creatures, including fish, have skin cells that can create polarized light and some seem to have developed communication systems with pulses of polarized light. Just the other day it was found that some fish can pass the mirror test, didn't you see that? The prevailing theory is that ratio of brain mass to body mass is more telling than the absolute size of the brain. Fish may fare worse on this metric but I suspect it's just an area where we have very little understanding yet. Being vegetarian or vegan is not so hard. It is one of many fundamental changes that society should pursue to avert the current ecological crisis and mitigate species loss.
  - nsonha 5y ago
    > The prevailing theory is that ratio of brain mass to body mass is more telling than the absolute size A bit weird nitpicking when you yourself make an insubstantial claim about some "prevailing" theory. I think we can both agree that reducing meat consumption is the right thing to do, it's just sometimes to convince people you need to show some leeway.
    - open0 5y ago
      Why don't you go check it out yourself? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalization_quotient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalization_quotient

ericffr 5y ago

I disagree. Killing animals just because humans have been doing is not the answer. I'd rather go with plant-based diet than ignoring the harm even small family farms do to animals, and the environment.

readflaggedcomm 5y ago
Animal husbandry is an answer to human survival, among other things. Does there have to be one answer, to such a strong degree, that this mode of survival needs to be treated like a science-fiction oddity?
etrabroline 5y ago
I can respect that. Slaughterhouses are not pretty places. The weirdness is when you consider that the animals only exist because people raised them for their meat, is it really less cruel for these animals to never exist at all? I think we have to accept that both man and nature can and must be cruel at times.
- filoeleven 5y ago
  > is it really less cruel for these animals to never exist at all? I’ve seen this question asked time and time again, and it makes no sense to me. People commit suicide out of (often transient) emotional pain, and less frequently out of physical pain. If we who have the capability to envision a better future decide to opt out of suffering via death, why do you imagine that a chronically-suffering animal’s life is better than not facing that suffering in the first place?
  - etrabroline 5y ago
    >chronically-suffering animal’s life I don't think most farm animals are suffering through their entire life. They seem pretty all right to me. Factory chicken farms should be banned but not all meat.
    - orwin 5y ago
      Well, i've seen pigs pens, i've seen an old sow half eaten by her children, i assure you, even the worst chicken farm is nothing compared to an average pig factory.
    - filoeleven 5y ago
      All factory farms should be banned. You mentioned chickens, a sibling comment mentioned pigs, and I’ll add cows. They’re all horrible places. Animals “raised” in factory farms are better off never having existed. Small farms are a different story and a mixed bag.
- causasui 5y ago
  > is it really less cruel for these animals to never exist at all? Yes, without question.
filoeleven 5y ago
I also advocate for a plant-based diet, but your comment misses something about it mentioned in the article: > Often, pea, soy and potato crops don’t resemble natural ecosystems — they are vast monocultures that rely on large machinery, intensive processing and global distribution, just like the industrial system that produces meat on a large scale. So yes, let’s end factory farming, and start with the factory farming of animals. Let’s also not pretend that large-scale monocular farming of plants is a silver bullet. Regenerative farming is the thing to aim for at the moment. That will reduce both awful conditions for animals and the harm to our ecosystems. It affects animal factory farms to a greater extent. Fighting for a globally plant-based food source can be done in parallel, just don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

nsonha 5y ago

Human can survive well without meat. Even if you don't want to go full vegan, fish is another option, fish are way less intelligent than farm animals. I'm all for human survival and well-being, but this is more like convenience: it tastes good, easy to get and cheap. We can at least change to make it not cheap and easy anymore. Values in our economy are artificial anyway. It's not like we have much else to innovate for the next centuries, besides making more internet apps and going to Mars.

open0 5y ago
> fish are way less intelligent than farm animals There is no concrete evidence of this. A lot of sea creatures, including fish, have skin cells that can create polarized light and some seem to have developed communication systems with pulses of polarized light. Just the other day it was found that some fish can pass the mirror test, didn't you see that? The prevailing theory is that ratio of brain mass to body mass is more telling than the absolute size of the brain. Fish may fare worse on this metric but I suspect it's just an area where we have very little understanding yet. Being vegetarian or vegan is not so hard. It is one of many fundamental changes that society should pursue to avert the current ecological crisis and mitigate species loss.
- nsonha 5y ago
  > The prevailing theory is that ratio of brain mass to body mass is more telling than the absolute size A bit weird nitpicking when you yourself make an insubstantial claim about some "prevailing" theory. I think we can both agree that reducing meat consumption is the right thing to do, it's just sometimes to convince people you need to show some leeway.
  - open0 5y ago
    Why don't you go check it out yourself? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalization_quotient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalization_quotient