6 ms·

UBI isn't unemployment. You could collect UBI and still work.

by ssharp 5y ago

smaryjerry 5y ago
You could but no one would because they make more money not working. It equates to basically paying the company to work.
- qwytw 5y ago
  You'd get both the UBI + wage/salary, I'm not quite sure how that translates to "basically paying the company to work".
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    If I get enough money with ubi I won't waste my life working on something I don't care about. The amount of people who would continue their job if it wasn't for the money it's slim I definitely wouldn't waste my time building someone else product and creating value for society. I'd likely build something fun I want to build which is unlikely to be useful for society or make money. A large part of the populatin on would happily paint, cook, read books, watch movies, play videogames until they die - if they had the money.
    - danShumway 5y ago
      You'll still get paid for your normal job. It's not like that money would be thrown away, you're not working for free. You go to your job and work because you want more money. I think UBI is largely untested and its proponents should proceed with caution. But I also think people are overconfident in assuming that people wouldn't work; the reality is that we don't have a ton of data in either direction. If the 20th-21st century has taught us anything, it's that consumerism is a very powerful motivator. People like to have money to buy luxuries, most people don't want to sit on subsistence levels of income their entire lives. People want things. They want to buy videogames, and XBoxes, and nice houses, and cars, and iPhones, and to go to fancy restaurants. Whether consumerism is a powerful enough motivator... I just think people are very over-confident talking about what is definitely going to happen in a system that has basically never been tried before.
      - prepend 5y ago
        > If the 20th-21st century has taught us anything, it's that consumerism is a very powerful motivator. Or, perhaps, that there is much attention on consumers who spend significantly as they have “louder” lifestyles that are easy to show. Poverty rates are high with 14% of the US under the poverty line [0] and I don’t think consumerism is motivating them very much. And I think it’s risky to equate considering as a large scale motivator based on extrapolating mass consumer behavior to all. [0] https://www.prb.org/usdata/ https://www.prb.org/usdata/
        danShumway 5y ago
        Well, yeah, like I said: > Whether consumerism is a powerful enough motivator... I just think people are very over-confident talking about what is definitely going to happen in a system that has basically never been tried before. People are really eager to look at populations and make very strong assertions about what their intrinsic motivators are with (in my mind) little evidence. > and I don’t think consumerism is motivating them very much. Are 14% of the population below poverty levels because they like living there? Because our systems discourage saving money once you're on wellfare? Because of market pressures? We have basically zero large-scale experiments, but people on both sides of the UBI test seem really confident that they know what everyone will do.
      - smaryjerry 5y ago
        Today’s stimulus is a perfect example of UBI. 33.8% of all personal income in the last year came from the government. It results in everyone having more money to spend but eventually as we see now shortages in just about everything, those shortages cause prices to rise and soon even though everyone has more money, everything costs more. The market settles prices in the end and trying to control the market by pumping cash only works for a short term. Take an example of say Las Vegas limit surge pricing limit for Uber’s. They said we don’t want Uber’s to be expensive so we’ll limit how much they can charge. So what happens, prices are low, great! But.... now drivers don’t make what they are worth and no one wants to drive uber. Now uber in Vegas wait times can be hours longs making the service essentially useless. Many would gladly pay more to actually get an Uber, but they can’t even if they wanted to. Giving everyone more money is the same as trying to lower the price of everything. It just can’t happen from an economic standpoint without unintended consequences.
    - Al-Khwarizmi 5y ago
      Sounds like your work is worth more than you get paid for, then. You are only accepting to do it because you don't want to starve, i.e., it's a decision where one of the parties is under coercion. A really free labor market would be one where your life is not at risk if you refuse the job offer (as with UBI). In that situation, how much money would convince someone to accept your job? That's the real value of your job.
- ItsMonkk 5y ago
  I find it fascinating that this community can both have this stance and find nothing wrong with the FIRE movement. What is a $1000/month UBI? Using the 4% rule, it's equivalent to having investments worth $300000. I have a feeling that a lot of people on HN have a portfolio worth $300000. Are you still working?
  - smaryjerry 5y ago
    It’s not just employees but my close friends. They refuse to work because they will make more on unemployment. Making less by working means they are essentially paying someone to work. What is FIRE movement?
    - hollerith 5y ago
      "financial independence and retire early".
    - ItsMonkk 5y ago
      > Making less by working means they are essentially paying someone to work. Note that this is one of the benefits of the UBI. As it is universal, if you get a job you will keep getting your UBI. So there will never be a time where this occurs if we switch. Work would always be incentivized.
      - smaryjerry 5y ago
        This would be true if it was actually universal, but as far as I can tell these UBI benefits are usually only for the poor.
  - chii 5y ago
    > find nothing wrong with the FIRE movement. because those that get onto FIRE earned it themselves, rather than off the backs of taxpayers like in UBI.
    - ItsMonkk 5y ago

UBI isn't unemployment. You could collect UBI and still work.

by ssharp 5y ago

UBI isn't unemployment. You could collect UBI and still work.

You could but no one would because they make more money not working. It equates to basically paying the company to work.

qwytw 5y ago
You'd get both the UBI + wage/salary, I'm not quite sure how that translates to "basically paying the company to work".
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  If I get enough money with ubi I won't waste my life working on something I don't care about. The amount of people who would continue their job if it wasn't for the money it's slim I definitely wouldn't waste my time building someone else product and creating value for society. I'd likely build something fun I want to build which is unlikely to be useful for society or make money. A large part of the populatin on would happily paint, cook, read books, watch movies, play videogames until they die - if they had the money.
  - danShumway 5y ago
    You'll still get paid for your normal job. It's not like that money would be thrown away, you're not working for free. You go to your job and work because you want more money. I think UBI is largely untested and its proponents should proceed with caution. But I also think people are overconfident in assuming that people wouldn't work; the reality is that we don't have a ton of data in either direction. If the 20th-21st century has taught us anything, it's that consumerism is a very powerful motivator. People like to have money to buy luxuries, most people don't want to sit on subsistence levels of income their entire lives. People want things. They want to buy videogames, and XBoxes, and nice houses, and cars, and iPhones, and to go to fancy restaurants. Whether consumerism is a powerful enough motivator... I just think people are very over-confident talking about what is definitely going to happen in a system that has basically never been tried before.
    - prepend 5y ago
      > If the 20th-21st century has taught us anything, it's that consumerism is a very powerful motivator. Or, perhaps, that there is much attention on consumers who spend significantly as they have “louder” lifestyles that are easy to show. Poverty rates are high with 14% of the US under the poverty line [0] and I don’t think consumerism is motivating them very much. And I think it’s risky to equate considering as a large scale motivator based on extrapolating mass consumer behavior to all. [0] https://www.prb.org/usdata/ https://www.prb.org/usdata/
      - danShumway 5y ago
        Well, yeah, like I said: > Whether consumerism is a powerful enough motivator... I just think people are very over-confident talking about what is definitely going to happen in a system that has basically never been tried before. People are really eager to look at populations and make very strong assertions about what their intrinsic motivators are with (in my mind) little evidence. > and I don’t think consumerism is motivating them very much. Are 14% of the population below poverty levels because they like living there? Because our systems discourage saving money once you're on wellfare? Because of market pressures? We have basically zero large-scale experiments, but people on both sides of the UBI test seem really confident that they know what everyone will do.
    - smaryjerry 5y ago
      Today’s stimulus is a perfect example of UBI. 33.8% of all personal income in the last year came from the government. It results in everyone having more money to spend but eventually as we see now shortages in just about everything, those shortages cause prices to rise and soon even though everyone has more money, everything costs more. The market settles prices in the end and trying to control the market by pumping cash only works for a short term. Take an example of say Las Vegas limit surge pricing limit for Uber’s. They said we don’t want Uber’s to be expensive so we’ll limit how much they can charge. So what happens, prices are low, great! But.... now drivers don’t make what they are worth and no one wants to drive uber. Now uber in Vegas wait times can be hours longs making the service essentially useless. Many would gladly pay more to actually get an Uber, but they can’t even if they wanted to. Giving everyone more money is the same as trying to lower the price of everything. It just can’t happen from an economic standpoint without unintended consequences.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 5y ago
    Sounds like your work is worth more than you get paid for, then. You are only accepting to do it because you don't want to starve, i.e., it's a decision where one of the parties is under coercion. A really free labor market would be one where your life is not at risk if you refuse the job offer (as with UBI). In that situation, how much money would convince someone to accept your job? That's the real value of your job.
ItsMonkk 5y ago
I find it fascinating that this community can both have this stance and find nothing wrong with the FIRE movement. What is a $1000/month UBI? Using the 4% rule, it's equivalent to having investments worth $300000. I have a feeling that a lot of people on HN have a portfolio worth $300000. Are you still working?
- smaryjerry 5y ago
  It’s not just employees but my close friends. They refuse to work because they will make more on unemployment. Making less by working means they are essentially paying someone to work. What is FIRE movement?
  - hollerith 5y ago
    "financial independence and retire early".
  - ItsMonkk 5y ago
    > Making less by working means they are essentially paying someone to work. Note that this is one of the benefits of the UBI. As it is universal, if you get a job you will keep getting your UBI. So there will never be a time where this occurs if we switch. Work would always be incentivized.
    - smaryjerry 5y ago
      This would be true if it was actually universal, but as far as I can tell these UBI benefits are usually only for the poor.
- chii 5y ago
  > find nothing wrong with the FIRE movement. because those that get onto FIRE earned it themselves, rather than off the backs of taxpayers like in UBI.
  - ItsMonkk 5y ago