5 ms·

For sure. The media tends to report science press releases fairly uncritically. The result is that science reporting is reporting of claims of scientists and no

For sure. The media tends to report science press releases fairly uncritically. The result is that science reporting is reporting of claims of scientists and not of "science" itself. A better media ecosystem would incorporate the fact that many preliminary findings never pan out.

renewiltord 5y ago
I'm quite curious if there is a group of like-minded individuals out there who would participate in a wiki that attempts to summarize (with degree of certainty) the current known knowledge. The general Internet has a tendency to consider individual papers authoritative summaries of the general state of a field. And single studies rarely have that predictive power. For instance, one might read a single paper about a single study that says "Doubling of rectal cancer risk occurs if red meat is consumed right after sugar intake", and most Internet commentary will attempt to show this as incontrovertible truth. However, few such studies actually last or survive replication. i.e. most Internet commentary over-weights single study results, with near binary probability of truth measures: either something is almost certain or almost never. Would prefer a place where I can discuss with people who are less stridently enthusiastic about these papers, and where long membership retains historical prediction performance (I don't mind people disregarding my future predictions if my current predictions are poor) with appropriate windowing to permit learning.
- _fs 5y ago
  > I'm quite curious if there is a group of like-minded individuals out there who would participate in a wiki that attempts to summarize (with degree of certainty) the current known knowledge. Yes, it can be found at a http://wikipedia.org http://wikipedia.org
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    I'm actually a long-term contributor to Wikipedia (in my 14th year) and, as you can imagine, therefore a huge fan. However, Wikipedia does not attempt a synthesis of knowledge, preferring to be a repeater of what is publicly currently believed to be knowledge. i.e. if CNN, the WSJ, and the NYT report X is Y, that will count a lot more about X being Y than X actually being Y. Wikipedia is a wonderful resource and it definitely partly scratches this itch, and I appreciate your sharing it, but I am looking for something that occupies a slightly different space.
    - fernmyth 5y ago
      I have never measured the speed of light myself. But Google and Wolfram Alpha agree with my memory of physics lectures and textbooks. All of our epistemology is based on testimony. And in the degenerate but common case where the credibility of the source isn't considered, our epistemology devolves into memes. If Wikipedians apply consistent effort towards reconciling contradictory information in favor of seeking out better* sources, then that makes it as robust a system as we know how to make. *I don't know how to define "better" or "credible"
      - DubiousPusher 5y ago
        It may be based on testimony but this does not mean there is no metric for quality. There are tools which can help hint to us about the quality of some information: double blind controlled trials, reproduction, systemic reviews, longitudinal studies, published pre-study methodology, multiple lines of evidence. And some are considered as better than others. For example, a double blind controlled experiment is considered more indicitive of causal effect than an observational study. Which is still better than a self reported survey. I don't think it's entirely a bad idea. It would be hard because it would be an elitist endeavor. As in, criteria and protocol would have to be established by a small group ahead of time rather than democratically. Such institutions are vulnerable to capture or stagnation. But they can be really useful while they are true to their mission.
      - renewiltord 5y ago
        In my experience, Wikipedia covers emerging phenomena incompletely. It’s also bad at a question like “Is coffee bad for me?”. I’m not saying Wikipedia is good. It’s just not what I’m looking for here.
- DubiousPusher 5y ago
  Probably not quite what you're looking for but there was an interesting social network where the posts were forced into a kind of logical structure. For example, if you posted a conjecture you had to list supporting points that had to be individual. Then if someone wanted to reply to any point, they had to address that point specifically. I can't remember it's name and am totally unsure of how successful it was at staying on principle. But it was an interesting idea.
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    Is it Kialo: https://www.kialo.com/ https://www.kialo.com/
makomk 5y ago
As I recall, the media applied plenty of scrutiny to any claim that Covid might be less deadly than the media coverage suggested, the breathless uncritical reporting lent almost entirely in one direction.
- krrrh 5y ago
  Important to clarify that much of scrutiny went in the other direction, cutting down concerns about how bad things could get in January and February of 2020.
  - mikem170 5y ago
    After that I still saw a pattern where the media kept proffering worst case scenarios at every step, with no studies to back them up, even contradicting known science. The most recent example of this is fear-mongering headlines indicating that the vaccines would not be effective against variants. This might be expected behaviour for the flu, but not a coronavirus.
- DubiousPusher 5y ago
  You misunderstand me. I'm not referring to the virulence nor the deadliness of Covid-19. More to the tangential "scientific discoveries" that were credulously reported as they were published by doctors with little review or time to coroborate. Some examples -claims about hydroxychloroquine -claims about various other drug cocktails -claims of a new covid related inflammatory disease in children -claims about transmissibility to animals from humans Just to name a few.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    > claims about transmissibility to animals from humans I think that ones true, no? Ferrets, big cats, house cats , dogs, bats and mink (with hundreds of mink to human spread in Denmark) seem to be able to get it. Probably a bunch of primates too beyond gorillas. But not chickens and pigs (in the small study I dug up). https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30089-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5... https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/animals.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/... This is all a big deal since it means that, even if we vaccinate every human, it might stick around in wildlife and re-infect humans again after it mutates or as immunity decays.

renewiltord 5y ago

I'm quite curious if there is a group of like-minded individuals out there who would participate in a wiki that attempts to summarize (with degree of certainty) the current known knowledge. The general Internet has a tendency to consider individual papers authoritative summaries of the general state of a field. And single studies rarely have that predictive power. For instance, one might read a single paper about a single study that says "Doubling of rectal cancer risk occurs if red meat is consumed right after sugar intake", and most Internet commentary will attempt to show this as incontrovertible truth. However, few such studies actually last or survive replication. i.e. most Internet commentary over-weights single study results, with near binary probability of truth measures: either something is almost certain or almost never. Would prefer a place where I can discuss with people who are less stridently enthusiastic about these papers, and where long membership retains historical prediction performance (I don't mind people disregarding my future predictions if my current predictions are poor) with appropriate windowing to permit learning.

_fs 5y ago
> I'm quite curious if there is a group of like-minded individuals out there who would participate in a wiki that attempts to summarize (with degree of certainty) the current known knowledge. Yes, it can be found at a http://wikipedia.org http://wikipedia.org
- renewiltord 5y ago
  I'm actually a long-term contributor to Wikipedia (in my 14th year) and, as you can imagine, therefore a huge fan. However, Wikipedia does not attempt a synthesis of knowledge, preferring to be a repeater of what is publicly currently believed to be knowledge. i.e. if CNN, the WSJ, and the NYT report X is Y, that will count a lot more about X being Y than X actually being Y. Wikipedia is a wonderful resource and it definitely partly scratches this itch, and I appreciate your sharing it, but I am looking for something that occupies a slightly different space.
  - fernmyth 5y ago
    I have never measured the speed of light myself. But Google and Wolfram Alpha agree with my memory of physics lectures and textbooks. All of our epistemology is based on testimony. And in the degenerate but common case where the credibility of the source isn't considered, our epistemology devolves into memes. If Wikipedians apply consistent effort towards reconciling contradictory information in favor of seeking out better* sources, then that makes it as robust a system as we know how to make. *I don't know how to define "better" or "credible"
    - DubiousPusher 5y ago
      It may be based on testimony but this does not mean there is no metric for quality. There are tools which can help hint to us about the quality of some information: double blind controlled trials, reproduction, systemic reviews, longitudinal studies, published pre-study methodology, multiple lines of evidence. And some are considered as better than others. For example, a double blind controlled experiment is considered more indicitive of causal effect than an observational study. Which is still better than a self reported survey. I don't think it's entirely a bad idea. It would be hard because it would be an elitist endeavor. As in, criteria and protocol would have to be established by a small group ahead of time rather than democratically. Such institutions are vulnerable to capture or stagnation. But they can be really useful while they are true to their mission.
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      In my experience, Wikipedia covers emerging phenomena incompletely. It’s also bad at a question like “Is coffee bad for me?”. I’m not saying Wikipedia is good. It’s just not what I’m looking for here.
DubiousPusher 5y ago
Probably not quite what you're looking for but there was an interesting social network where the posts were forced into a kind of logical structure. For example, if you posted a conjecture you had to list supporting points that had to be individual. Then if someone wanted to reply to any point, they had to address that point specifically. I can't remember it's name and am totally unsure of how successful it was at staying on principle. But it was an interesting idea.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  Is it Kialo: https://www.kialo.com/ https://www.kialo.com/

makomk 5y ago

As I recall, the media applied plenty of scrutiny to any claim that Covid might be less deadly than the media coverage suggested, the breathless uncritical reporting lent almost entirely in one direction.

krrrh 5y ago
Important to clarify that much of scrutiny went in the other direction, cutting down concerns about how bad things could get in January and February of 2020.
- mikem170 5y ago
  After that I still saw a pattern where the media kept proffering worst case scenarios at every step, with no studies to back them up, even contradicting known science. The most recent example of this is fear-mongering headlines indicating that the vaccines would not be effective against variants. This might be expected behaviour for the flu, but not a coronavirus.
DubiousPusher 5y ago
You misunderstand me. I'm not referring to the virulence nor the deadliness of Covid-19. More to the tangential "scientific discoveries" that were credulously reported as they were published by doctors with little review or time to coroborate. Some examples -claims about hydroxychloroquine -claims about various other drug cocktails -claims of a new covid related inflammatory disease in children -claims about transmissibility to animals from humans Just to name a few.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  > claims about transmissibility to animals from humans I think that ones true, no? Ferrets, big cats, house cats , dogs, bats and mink (with hundreds of mink to human spread in Denmark) seem to be able to get it. Probably a bunch of primates too beyond gorillas. But not chickens and pigs (in the small study I dug up). https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30089-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5... https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/animals.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/... This is all a big deal since it means that, even if we vaccinate every human, it might stick around in wildlife and re-infect humans again after it mutates or as immunity decays.