8 ms·

I want to say something sarcastic, but I am in genuine disbelief that this could be anyone's vision for the future of humanity. What an abhorrent nightmare.

TchoBeer 5y ago
I don't see why eliminating disease is an abhorrent nightmare to you. Is the fact that no one gets polio anymore also an abhorrent nightmare?
- at-fates-hands 5y ago
  Polio was never eliminated. It still persists in poor countries and among abject poverty stricken communities. Wild poliovirus has been eradicated in all continents except Asia, and as of 2020, Afghanistan and Pakistan are the only two countries where the disease is still classified as endemic.[5][6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_eradication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_eradication
  - robbrown451 5y ago
    Eliminated and eradicated are not the same thing. Polio certainly has been eliminated from the United States. The point is, polio is no longer a significant problem here.
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    Sorry, maybe I should've specified _In the United States_
hderms 5y ago
I genuinely have no idea why that would be abhorrent, except to anti-vaxxers. Can you explain?
- osenthuortuh 5y ago
  Pugs cannot give birth naturally. The continued existence of pugs is completely dependent on medical intervention. In other words, pugs are not real. They exist only to the degree that a painting or building exists. They require constant upkeep by an advanced society, which has never existed beyond a few thousand years at a time. Why would anyone's vision for the future of humanity be an animal that can only exist in the context of an advanced civilization? Why would anyone's vision of humanity be an animal that is dependent for survival on <product> from <company> as though they were cattle? To reduce a human being to a dependent component of a pharmaceutical production chain is an abhorrent moral hazard. Smallpox was made extinct, and other diseases may be made greatly reduced because they are unique to humanity. But the many coronaviruses are shared between mammals, and are an eternal component of the environment. We have a moral obligation to evolve to suit the environment. That is what it means to be a successful animal.
  - majormajor 5y ago
    > We have a moral obligation to evolve to suit the environment. That is what it means to be a successful animal. So tools as a whole are just... sins? How far down this line do you want us to go? No plastics? No computers? No structures? No roads? No clothes?
  - rebuilder 5y ago
    >Why would anyone's vision for the future of humanity be an animal that can only exist in the context of an advanced civilization? That is a textbook description of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, IMO. We are not very impressive without an advanced civilization.
    - saalweachter 5y ago
      Niches changing is pretty boringly normal. Dolphins are evolutionarily unfit to occupy the niche they had back on land. The bacteria that precipitated the oxygen crisis were very successful until they weren't. There are many reasons to care about environmental destruction, pollution, and the loss of biodiversity, but at the same time it's neither particularly rational nor natural to obsess about preserving exactly the niches which existed at a particular point in time, nor our fitness for them.
gnulinux 5y ago
Why? I honestly don't see what you're suggesting? We're already half-human half-chemical half-cyborgs. We drink coffee which includes caffeine, we use alcohol and THC regularly to "socialize", we take ibuprofen et al when feel pain, we eat sugar because we're fucking addicted. We use internet almost all the time except when sleeping and taking a shower. We check reddit, twitter, HN, facebook, instagram as if our lives depend on it. We're on track to build virtual reality googles that'll entertain us in an entire different simulated reality that we can only experience via our eyes. Not to mention most people look at monitors most of their lives anyway. We regularly vaccinate against tetanus, HPV, chicken pox, flu etc. Do you not get the flu shot every year? I vaccinate my cat against rabies and distemper every year. I take antidepressants (anxiety) and antihistemics (allergy) every day, because I kinda need them to live normally. My girlfriend has to take pain medicine once a month due to her basic biology. And the problem is we'll add COVID and cold to our annual flu shots, and that somehow makes our world any more dystopic. Makes absolutely no fucking sense. There are trillions of shit to be outraged about, this ain't one of those. Just chill.
- Mediterraneo10 5y ago
  Who knows what motivated the grandparent post to say that [EDIT: OK, now he explained and I definitely don’t endorse that, geez], but I can see some grounds for unease at aledalgrande's vision of a specifically annual vaccination mentioned above. The COVID epidemic has been accompanied by border closures, followed now by a slow and chaotic reopening of them as different countries recognize different vaccines and different certificates proving vaccination. A future where everyone must get an annual jab to prevent even the common cold, and then have to prove recent vaccination to cross borders, would only continue indefinitely what many people hoped was just a one-off thing in their lifetimes. Incidentally, only half of people or less even in affluent countries get the annual flu shot. It is frequently believed to be relevant only for the elderly and at-risk demographics.
  - gnulinux 5y ago
    > many people hoped was just a one-off thing. This was never the case. If you didn't understand that COVID is here to stay indefinitely, like flu, after April 2020 I'm sorry but you aren't paying attention. Not to mention, if we follow perfect vaccination around the world, we can eradicate COVID like we eradicated smallpox etc, although this will be a lot harder. So, I still don't see your point. Yes people need to take yearly vaccines not to die of horrible diseases. That has been the case for the last few hundred years.
sokoloff 5y ago
That would be amazing. A needle stick every year and significantly less (even mild) illnesses? Let's do it. (I say this as someone who fortunately almost never gets sick. People who are often sick would relish this even more.)
- xwolfi 5y ago
  I get sick every year for some reason, often gastro, and the bi-yearly AC switch off/on giving me a long cold because I grew up in a country without AC. A year out of two I have a bad flu, a year out of 5, a bad otitis so painful I can't eat for a while... Well the ONLY year of my life (I'm 33) I wasn't sick was 2020-2021. I think... the mask helped a lot. I feel like I understand now all these people telling me getting so sick every year wasn't normal...
  - matwood 5y ago
    I didn’t get a cold for just over 14 months. It was glorious. Now that I’m vaccinated I’ve been out a bit more and have been dealing with a head cold all week. If there’s a shot to stop colds, sign me up.
robbrown451 5y ago
I'm at a loss as to why reduction of suffering and death is abhorrent to you.
- osenthuortuh 5y ago
  It's an artificial reduction in suffering and death. It's a genetic loan that will one day be repaid, with interest.
  - saalweachter 5y ago
    The best way to prepare for future evolutionary challenges is to stockpile genetic diversity. More genetic diversity means both less of a chance of the entire population being vulnerable in the same way to a new threat, and better chances to reach new local maximas that are two or three hops through rough terrain in the evolutionary search space. Continually applying harsh selection criteria just homogenizes a population to a local maxima and leaves them vulnerable to future change.
  - 0-_-0 5y ago
    How about... wearing clothes? Cooking food?
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Not really. This is a naive interpretation of Darwinism. If anything, humans have become more genetically fit by mixing various formerly isolated populations together. Which is very much a consequence of global civilization. By far the largest problem of any genetic pool (animals, plants, whatever) is not having enough genetic diversity in it. See: Cavendish bananas, the Tasmanian devil.
  - robbrown451 5y ago
    Ok, well if you want to do your part to contribute to the genetic excellence of the human race, don't use medicine. If you get an infection, instead of using antibiotics, just let it kill you. Don't get glasses, just let your bad vision get you killed. How far do you want to take this? I'm sure you can increase the immunities of future humans by drinking out of puddles like dogs do. It doesn't seem to make dogs sick, presumably because all the dogs in the past with weaker immune systems died, probably with a lot of suffering. I doubt you do any of these things, because you aren't willing to accept the low chance of survival-to-adulthood that typical wild animals have. It may keep their genetics in tip top shape, but is that really what you want?
rsynnott 5y ago
You’re aware that most people already have a bunch of vaccines, right?
antonvs 5y ago
You've already benefited, either directly or indirectly, from the polio vaccine, the smallpox vaccine, antibiotics, etc. You might not even be alive if it weren't for those, because some of your direct ancestors would have been likely to die or be severely disabled. So what is suddenly giving you pause here? Just the idea that these shots may be needed more regularly, rather than a few times during childhood? Do you think we should return to a life in which we forage naked for berries in the forest? Assuming the answer is no, where do you draw the line as to what technologies you're willing to accept, and which you aren't?

TchoBeer 5y ago

I don't see why eliminating disease is an abhorrent nightmare to you. Is the fact that no one gets polio anymore also an abhorrent nightmare?

at-fates-hands 5y ago
Polio was never eliminated. It still persists in poor countries and among abject poverty stricken communities. Wild poliovirus has been eradicated in all continents except Asia, and as of 2020, Afghanistan and Pakistan are the only two countries where the disease is still classified as endemic.[5][6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_eradication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_eradication
- robbrown451 5y ago
  Eliminated and eradicated are not the same thing. Polio certainly has been eliminated from the United States. The point is, polio is no longer a significant problem here.
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  Sorry, maybe I should've specified _In the United States_

hderms 5y ago

I genuinely have no idea why that would be abhorrent, except to anti-vaxxers. Can you explain?

osenthuortuh 5y ago
Pugs cannot give birth naturally. The continued existence of pugs is completely dependent on medical intervention. In other words, pugs are not real. They exist only to the degree that a painting or building exists. They require constant upkeep by an advanced society, which has never existed beyond a few thousand years at a time. Why would anyone's vision for the future of humanity be an animal that can only exist in the context of an advanced civilization? Why would anyone's vision of humanity be an animal that is dependent for survival on <product> from <company> as though they were cattle? To reduce a human being to a dependent component of a pharmaceutical production chain is an abhorrent moral hazard. Smallpox was made extinct, and other diseases may be made greatly reduced because they are unique to humanity. But the many coronaviruses are shared between mammals, and are an eternal component of the environment. We have a moral obligation to evolve to suit the environment. That is what it means to be a successful animal.
- majormajor 5y ago
  > We have a moral obligation to evolve to suit the environment. That is what it means to be a successful animal. So tools as a whole are just... sins? How far down this line do you want us to go? No plastics? No computers? No structures? No roads? No clothes?
- rebuilder 5y ago
  >Why would anyone's vision for the future of humanity be an animal that can only exist in the context of an advanced civilization? That is a textbook description of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, IMO. We are not very impressive without an advanced civilization.
  - saalweachter 5y ago
    Niches changing is pretty boringly normal. Dolphins are evolutionarily unfit to occupy the niche they had back on land. The bacteria that precipitated the oxygen crisis were very successful until they weren't. There are many reasons to care about environmental destruction, pollution, and the loss of biodiversity, but at the same time it's neither particularly rational nor natural to obsess about preserving exactly the niches which existed at a particular point in time, nor our fitness for them.

gnulinux 5y ago

Why? I honestly don't see what you're suggesting? We're already half-human half-chemical half-cyborgs. We drink coffee which includes caffeine, we use alcohol and THC regularly to "socialize", we take ibuprofen et al when feel pain, we eat sugar because we're fucking addicted. We use internet almost all the time except when sleeping and taking a shower. We check reddit, twitter, HN, facebook, instagram as if our lives depend on it. We're on track to build virtual reality googles that'll entertain us in an entire different simulated reality that we can only experience via our eyes. Not to mention most people look at monitors most of their lives anyway. We regularly vaccinate against tetanus, HPV, chicken pox, flu etc. Do you not get the flu shot every year? I vaccinate my cat against rabies and distemper every year. I take antidepressants (anxiety) and antihistemics (allergy) every day, because I kinda need them to live normally. My girlfriend has to take pain medicine once a month due to her basic biology. And the problem is we'll add COVID and cold to our annual flu shots, and that somehow makes our world any more dystopic. Makes absolutely no fucking sense. There are trillions of shit to be outraged about, this ain't one of those. Just chill.

Mediterraneo10 5y ago
Who knows what motivated the grandparent post to say that [EDIT: OK, now he explained and I definitely don’t endorse that, geez], but I can see some grounds for unease at aledalgrande's vision of a specifically annual vaccination mentioned above. The COVID epidemic has been accompanied by border closures, followed now by a slow and chaotic reopening of them as different countries recognize different vaccines and different certificates proving vaccination. A future where everyone must get an annual jab to prevent even the common cold, and then have to prove recent vaccination to cross borders, would only continue indefinitely what many people hoped was just a one-off thing in their lifetimes. Incidentally, only half of people or less even in affluent countries get the annual flu shot. It is frequently believed to be relevant only for the elderly and at-risk demographics.
- gnulinux 5y ago
  > many people hoped was just a one-off thing. This was never the case. If you didn't understand that COVID is here to stay indefinitely, like flu, after April 2020 I'm sorry but you aren't paying attention. Not to mention, if we follow perfect vaccination around the world, we can eradicate COVID like we eradicated smallpox etc, although this will be a lot harder. So, I still don't see your point. Yes people need to take yearly vaccines not to die of horrible diseases. That has been the case for the last few hundred years.

sokoloff 5y ago

That would be amazing. A needle stick every year and significantly less (even mild) illnesses? Let's do it. (I say this as someone who fortunately almost never gets sick. People who are often sick would relish this even more.)

xwolfi 5y ago
I get sick every year for some reason, often gastro, and the bi-yearly AC switch off/on giving me a long cold because I grew up in a country without AC. A year out of two I have a bad flu, a year out of 5, a bad otitis so painful I can't eat for a while... Well the ONLY year of my life (I'm 33) I wasn't sick was 2020-2021. I think... the mask helped a lot. I feel like I understand now all these people telling me getting so sick every year wasn't normal...
- matwood 5y ago
  I didn’t get a cold for just over 14 months. It was glorious. Now that I’m vaccinated I’ve been out a bit more and have been dealing with a head cold all week. If there’s a shot to stop colds, sign me up.

robbrown451 5y ago

I'm at a loss as to why reduction of suffering and death is abhorrent to you.

osenthuortuh 5y ago
It's an artificial reduction in suffering and death. It's a genetic loan that will one day be repaid, with interest.
- saalweachter 5y ago
  The best way to prepare for future evolutionary challenges is to stockpile genetic diversity. More genetic diversity means both less of a chance of the entire population being vulnerable in the same way to a new threat, and better chances to reach new local maximas that are two or three hops through rough terrain in the evolutionary search space. Continually applying harsh selection criteria just homogenizes a population to a local maxima and leaves them vulnerable to future change.
- 0-_-0 5y ago
  How about... wearing clothes? Cooking food?
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Not really. This is a naive interpretation of Darwinism. If anything, humans have become more genetically fit by mixing various formerly isolated populations together. Which is very much a consequence of global civilization. By far the largest problem of any genetic pool (animals, plants, whatever) is not having enough genetic diversity in it. See: Cavendish bananas, the Tasmanian devil.
- robbrown451 5y ago
  Ok, well if you want to do your part to contribute to the genetic excellence of the human race, don't use medicine. If you get an infection, instead of using antibiotics, just let it kill you. Don't get glasses, just let your bad vision get you killed. How far do you want to take this? I'm sure you can increase the immunities of future humans by drinking out of puddles like dogs do. It doesn't seem to make dogs sick, presumably because all the dogs in the past with weaker immune systems died, probably with a lot of suffering. I doubt you do any of these things, because you aren't willing to accept the low chance of survival-to-adulthood that typical wild animals have. It may keep their genetics in tip top shape, but is that really what you want?

rsynnott 5y ago

You’re aware that most people already have a bunch of vaccines, right?

antonvs 5y ago

You've already benefited, either directly or indirectly, from the polio vaccine, the smallpox vaccine, antibiotics, etc. You might not even be alive if it weren't for those, because some of your direct ancestors would have been likely to die or be severely disabled. So what is suddenly giving you pause here? Just the idea that these shots may be needed more regularly, rather than a few times during childhood? Do you think we should return to a life in which we forage naked for berries in the forest? Assuming the answer is no, where do you draw the line as to what technologies you're willing to accept, and which you aren't?