5 ms·

> But probably not AAA gaming, since gaming on Linux is a tough proposition even in the best of circumstances. Just in case that's unknown to you or to other r

by onli 5y ago

> But probably not AAA gaming, since gaming on Linux is a tough proposition even in the best of circumstances. Just in case that's unknown to you or to other readers: It's really not true. Have a look at https://www.protondb.com/ https://www.protondb.com/ - Linux is excellent for gaming, even AAA gaming. The PI processor just would be too weak either way, and not being x86 would prevent the games from running directly. Maybe that incompatibility and not having proprietary games compiled for ARM available is what you meant? That would need something like https://github.com/ptitSeb/box86 https://github.com/ptitSeb/box86, which actually seems to work way better than expected.

geerlingguy 5y ago
Eh... the problem is even with Proton it's extra work and sometimes not pleasant try to keep games running natively in Linux. I had a nice Kubuntu Focus 2 laptop with a fast Nvidia RTX mobile chip, and all the bells and whistles, and I could only get 2 of my 5 favorite Steam games to run through Proton, and one of those required some janky tweaks to make it run correctly. When they did run they ran great (testament to the hardware and the decent driver support), but that's what I mean when it's 'tough'. Not impossible but it's not like Windows, where you just click buy, wait for the game to download, and start playing.
- onli 5y ago
  With 1 out of 5 you were extremely unlucky. For the most part proton works exactly like described: You click on play and the game does run. In the other cases where there are fixes to be applied that's most of the time just setting a simple start parameter directly in Steam. You also should consider that on Windows in practice there are many issues, ranging from drivers and OS updates critically breaking performance (happened just now again), middleware stopping to work, and many older games that run perfectly fine on Linux not running at all on Windows anymore. It always depends on your game selection of course, but I for example also removed my dual boot Windows installation to exclusively game on Linux a few years ago now because it got way too annoying dealing with all the breakage and incompatibility on that platform.
  - minimaul 5y ago
    It's actually interesting in that tech written to help games run on Linux can also help older games run on Windows! As an example, the best way to run The Sims 2 on Windows 10 with a modern GPU is to force the game to render via DXVK :)
    - onli 5y ago
      Right, that is interesting. Goes in the same direction as that the compatibility I praise above is from a certain perspective somewhat of an accident - Wine was supposed to run cutting edge software. It does, but it also still runs the old software, giving it a capability modern Windows is missing.
  - LucidLynx 5y ago
    I tried for ProtonDB for the 5 most games I play since a few months now: Cyberpunk 2077, PUBG, Doom: Eternal, Disco Elysium, Apex Legends with friends. On those 5 games, 3 do not work at all, and Doom: Eternal keeps crashing every 15 minutes with the two latest builds. I am sorry but the "You click on play and the game does run." is definitely not true, except if you are playing famous old games (mainly supported by Valve) like Portal, CS, ...
    - vimacs2 5y ago
      I'm curious if you use Nvidia or AMD because for me (a rx 390 owner), Doom Eternal not only runs flawlessly on Linux, it's performance is out of the box better than on Windows. As for stuff like PUBG and Apex Legends, that's a crapshoot thanks to anti-cheat software frequently being hostile to Linux. Thankfully, there is work being done and at least the situation with Battle Eye has improved in recent years.
    - achempion 5y ago
      Not at all, I had issues running CSGO when you can't set stretched resolution or play 4:3. The performance was way worse comparing to Windows. I think the game itself was broken for couple of days for GNOME because of some library and if you want to play you have to switch to KDE. Even if you want to game on linux, you have to install a ton of libraries, hope in wouldn't brick your system and then jump through the hoops all day and in case if something breaks you have to spent time debugging / reinstalling system instead of playing.
- txdv 5y ago
  Can you name the games?
- VMtest 5y ago
  So your daily driver is Windows pc already? For development + video editing + gaming, are you gonna make a Windows vs Mac comparison video soon? Linking some comments from your pi vs mac thread over here 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23503762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23503762 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23503481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23503481
- imtringued 5y ago
  The problem with Proton is that some things cannot be bypassed. I recently downloaded a multiplayer game that uses Xigncode (anti cheat software) and it simply doesn't work with proton. I know the game works flawlessly because I played a version of it from a different publisher that didn't use anti cheat software (it's not a competitive game).
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    Anticheat will never work on anything other than the official OS for which it is designed. A cornerstone of anticheat is to prevent the user from running non-approved software in the same space as the game. Any attempt to emulate an OS or fiddle wit memory will be attacked as possible cheating. On a higher level, anticheat is about locking down user behavior, confining it to acceptable corners of the machine. It is there to enforce the content creator's wish. It is just the latest incarnation of DRM. I expect that many in control of linux are quietly happy to hear that it doesn't work properly on linux systems.
    - krapht 5y ago
      Right. And random drug-testing is infringing on the athlete's right to bodily autonomy. Why would anyone care about the competitive integrity of a video game?
    - ejfiskbkkd 5y ago
      I can give you a counterexample, Battlefield 3, which uses Punkbuster Anti-Cheat, works fully and I played it a lot with friends in multiplayer.
- techrat 5y ago
  > Eh... the problem is even with Proton it's extra work and sometimes not pleasant try to keep games running natively in Linux. I flipped one switch in settings and restarted Steam. I install Windows-only games in Linux just like I do in Windows within Steam. How is that extra work? The vast majority of the games now work in Proton without any significant performance differences. I actually have an inverse anecdote to yours: Two games I recently tried to run in Windows 10 wouldn't run, but ran flawlessly in Proton/Steam/Linux despite being newer Windows only games.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  That's the nature of all desktop computing on Linux. Either way, Linux is very much capable of AAA gaming, though the setup can be a little rougher on the Linux side of things. That being said, Steam's Proton has made it so that 90% of my games just run out of the box.
speedgoose 5y ago
I just checked the protondb website for a few games I enjoy these days and it's far from excellent. I will keep the other way around : windows with WSL2.
dncornholio 5y ago
I don't think you can call gaming on Linux excellent if it still involves WINE / DXVK. Until Linux gets first party support, it will never be excellent. More like 'good enough'
- washadjeffmad 5y ago
  That's exactly why it's excellent. If the goals of future game development are pro-consumer and developer-centric like platform agnosticism (or, preventing artificial platform monopolies like, eg- GFWL) and simplifying development, then we're doing way better than good enough. We've learned over the past decade that publishing Linux native games isn't as feasible or valuable because supporting them smothers smaller and independent developers in distro-specific bugs, robbing them of time and resources they could be putting towards developing content, spending time with family, or planning their next projects. There's no reason to publish natively as long as you can develop with Proton/SteamPlay in mind, and instead of every indie dev needing to fumble through learning Linux support, it shifts the burden to specialized developers (like Valve) who can more effectively contribute to Proton instead. Linux native support is almost an anti-criteria for me today, because I'd much rather troubleshoot a known-working build with all the features enabled (eg- multiplayer works with other "Windows" versions) instead of a build that lags behind in updates and may never be more than a perpetual WIP. Proton and tools like DXVK and D3DVK that can be ported anywhere exist to circumvent that, and that's pretty amazing when you think about it.
- imtringued 5y ago
  DXVK is just Direct X for Linux. It's just a library the same way libc is a library. Why would I care about what libraries my games use? The problem isn't the compatibility, it's the reliability. You can't expect every game to work under Proton. It's always a gamble. If there was a guarantee that every game works then it would be indistinguishable from excellent first party support. The reason why it's only good enough is that you have to sacrifice the titles that don't work.
- swiley 5y ago
  Wine has gotten incredibly good over the past few years.
offtop5 5y ago
I love that this always comes up, no gaming on Linux will never be as easy as Windows. It works about 90% of the time, but in that 10% there are probably a couple of games you're just not going to be able to get working. If you're serious about gaining, there's no reason to just not buy a Windows license. You can duelboot
- onli 5y ago
  It's not like 100% of games someone wants to play will work on Windows. Back when GTA 4 was relatively new I got it as a present. Took months until the Games for Windows Live DRM permitted me to run it, and even then only offline. Another example - that's a while ago, but that's when I realized the compatibility you get from Linux: I tried to play the original Anno 1602 and of course booted up Windows, and it just was impossible at that time to get it to run. Annoyed me enough to finally try it on Linux, with the regular wine, where it just worked. Sure, you can always dualboot, but it's honestly a hassle after a while. Windows updates every time you boot it up (when it's seldom enough), Grub breaking occasionally, and when you are used to Linux modern Windows is just excruciating user hostile. When 90% of your Steam library works anyway it's just not worth it.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    A common refrain on the internet is "but can it play crysis?" Windows 10 can't (at least not without a crack) because the DRM doesn't work anymore.
  - offtop5 5y ago
    I dualboot without issue. You can also run Linux inside of a VM on Windows. Or you can even have a dedicated gaming PC and a cheap Linux PC. Windows Subsystem for Linux can give you the best of both worlds. I don't love Windows, honestly I think OSX is the best OS, but I can't run it on anything but a Mac. >When 90% of your Steam library works anyway Epic, EA, and Ubisoft don't even have clients for Linux.
    - onli 5y ago

by onli 5y ago

geerlingguy 5y ago

Eh... the problem is even with Proton it's extra work and sometimes not pleasant try to keep games running natively in Linux. I had a nice Kubuntu Focus 2 laptop with a fast Nvidia RTX mobile chip, and all the bells and whistles, and I could only get 2 of my 5 favorite Steam games to run through Proton, and one of those required some janky tweaks to make it run correctly. When they did run they ran great (testament to the hardware and the decent driver support), but that's what I mean when it's 'tough'. Not impossible but it's not like Windows, where you just click buy, wait for the game to download, and start playing.

onli 5y ago
With 1 out of 5 you were extremely unlucky. For the most part proton works exactly like described: You click on play and the game does run. In the other cases where there are fixes to be applied that's most of the time just setting a simple start parameter directly in Steam. You also should consider that on Windows in practice there are many issues, ranging from drivers and OS updates critically breaking performance (happened just now again), middleware stopping to work, and many older games that run perfectly fine on Linux not running at all on Windows anymore. It always depends on your game selection of course, but I for example also removed my dual boot Windows installation to exclusively game on Linux a few years ago now because it got way too annoying dealing with all the breakage and incompatibility on that platform.
- minimaul 5y ago
  It's actually interesting in that tech written to help games run on Linux can also help older games run on Windows! As an example, the best way to run The Sims 2 on Windows 10 with a modern GPU is to force the game to render via DXVK :)
  - onli 5y ago
    Right, that is interesting. Goes in the same direction as that the compatibility I praise above is from a certain perspective somewhat of an accident - Wine was supposed to run cutting edge software. It does, but it also still runs the old software, giving it a capability modern Windows is missing.
- LucidLynx 5y ago
  I tried for ProtonDB for the 5 most games I play since a few months now: Cyberpunk 2077, PUBG, Doom: Eternal, Disco Elysium, Apex Legends with friends. On those 5 games, 3 do not work at all, and Doom: Eternal keeps crashing every 15 minutes with the two latest builds. I am sorry but the "You click on play and the game does run." is definitely not true, except if you are playing famous old games (mainly supported by Valve) like Portal, CS, ...
  - vimacs2 5y ago
    I'm curious if you use Nvidia or AMD because for me (a rx 390 owner), Doom Eternal not only runs flawlessly on Linux, it's performance is out of the box better than on Windows. As for stuff like PUBG and Apex Legends, that's a crapshoot thanks to anti-cheat software frequently being hostile to Linux. Thankfully, there is work being done and at least the situation with Battle Eye has improved in recent years.
  - achempion 5y ago
    Not at all, I had issues running CSGO when you can't set stretched resolution or play 4:3. The performance was way worse comparing to Windows. I think the game itself was broken for couple of days for GNOME because of some library and if you want to play you have to switch to KDE. Even if you want to game on linux, you have to install a ton of libraries, hope in wouldn't brick your system and then jump through the hoops all day and in case if something breaks you have to spent time debugging / reinstalling system instead of playing.
txdv 5y ago
Can you name the games?
VMtest 5y ago
So your daily driver is Windows pc already? For development + video editing + gaming, are you gonna make a Windows vs Mac comparison video soon? Linking some comments from your pi vs mac thread over here 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23503762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23503762 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23503481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23503481
imtringued 5y ago
The problem with Proton is that some things cannot be bypassed. I recently downloaded a multiplayer game that uses Xigncode (anti cheat software) and it simply doesn't work with proton. I know the game works flawlessly because I played a version of it from a different publisher that didn't use anti cheat software (it's not a competitive game).
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Anticheat will never work on anything other than the official OS for which it is designed. A cornerstone of anticheat is to prevent the user from running non-approved software in the same space as the game. Any attempt to emulate an OS or fiddle wit memory will be attacked as possible cheating. On a higher level, anticheat is about locking down user behavior, confining it to acceptable corners of the machine. It is there to enforce the content creator's wish. It is just the latest incarnation of DRM. I expect that many in control of linux are quietly happy to hear that it doesn't work properly on linux systems.
  - krapht 5y ago
    Right. And random drug-testing is infringing on the athlete's right to bodily autonomy. Why would anyone care about the competitive integrity of a video game?
  - ejfiskbkkd 5y ago
    I can give you a counterexample, Battlefield 3, which uses Punkbuster Anti-Cheat, works fully and I played it a lot with friends in multiplayer.
techrat 5y ago
> Eh... the problem is even with Proton it's extra work and sometimes not pleasant try to keep games running natively in Linux. I flipped one switch in settings and restarted Steam. I install Windows-only games in Linux just like I do in Windows within Steam. How is that extra work? The vast majority of the games now work in Proton without any significant performance differences. I actually have an inverse anecdote to yours: Two games I recently tried to run in Windows 10 wouldn't run, but ran flawlessly in Proton/Steam/Linux despite being newer Windows only games.
smoldesu 5y ago
That's the nature of all desktop computing on Linux. Either way, Linux is very much capable of AAA gaming, though the setup can be a little rougher on the Linux side of things. That being said, Steam's Proton has made it so that 90% of my games just run out of the box.

speedgoose 5y ago

I just checked the protondb website for a few games I enjoy these days and it's far from excellent. I will keep the other way around : windows with WSL2.

dncornholio 5y ago

I don't think you can call gaming on Linux excellent if it still involves WINE / DXVK. Until Linux gets first party support, it will never be excellent. More like 'good enough'

washadjeffmad 5y ago
That's exactly why it's excellent. If the goals of future game development are pro-consumer and developer-centric like platform agnosticism (or, preventing artificial platform monopolies like, eg- GFWL) and simplifying development, then we're doing way better than good enough. We've learned over the past decade that publishing Linux native games isn't as feasible or valuable because supporting them smothers smaller and independent developers in distro-specific bugs, robbing them of time and resources they could be putting towards developing content, spending time with family, or planning their next projects. There's no reason to publish natively as long as you can develop with Proton/SteamPlay in mind, and instead of every indie dev needing to fumble through learning Linux support, it shifts the burden to specialized developers (like Valve) who can more effectively contribute to Proton instead. Linux native support is almost an anti-criteria for me today, because I'd much rather troubleshoot a known-working build with all the features enabled (eg- multiplayer works with other "Windows" versions) instead of a build that lags behind in updates and may never be more than a perpetual WIP. Proton and tools like DXVK and D3DVK that can be ported anywhere exist to circumvent that, and that's pretty amazing when you think about it.
imtringued 5y ago
DXVK is just Direct X for Linux. It's just a library the same way libc is a library. Why would I care about what libraries my games use? The problem isn't the compatibility, it's the reliability. You can't expect every game to work under Proton. It's always a gamble. If there was a guarantee that every game works then it would be indistinguishable from excellent first party support. The reason why it's only good enough is that you have to sacrifice the titles that don't work.
swiley 5y ago
Wine has gotten incredibly good over the past few years.

offtop5 5y ago

I love that this always comes up, no gaming on Linux will never be as easy as Windows. It works about 90% of the time, but in that 10% there are probably a couple of games you're just not going to be able to get working. If you're serious about gaining, there's no reason to just not buy a Windows license. You can duelboot

onli 5y ago
It's not like 100% of games someone wants to play will work on Windows. Back when GTA 4 was relatively new I got it as a present. Took months until the Games for Windows Live DRM permitted me to run it, and even then only offline. Another example - that's a while ago, but that's when I realized the compatibility you get from Linux: I tried to play the original Anno 1602 and of course booted up Windows, and it just was impossible at that time to get it to run. Annoyed me enough to finally try it on Linux, with the regular wine, where it just worked. Sure, you can always dualboot, but it's honestly a hassle after a while. Windows updates every time you boot it up (when it's seldom enough), Grub breaking occasionally, and when you are used to Linux modern Windows is just excruciating user hostile. When 90% of your Steam library works anyway it's just not worth it.
- monocasa 5y ago
  A common refrain on the internet is "but can it play crysis?" Windows 10 can't (at least not without a crack) because the DRM doesn't work anymore.
- offtop5 5y ago
  I dualboot without issue. You can also run Linux inside of a VM on Windows. Or you can even have a dedicated gaming PC and a cheap Linux PC. Windows Subsystem for Linux can give you the best of both worlds. I don't love Windows, honestly I think OSX is the best OS, but I can't run it on anything but a Mac. >When 90% of your Steam library works anyway Epic, EA, and Ubisoft don't even have clients for Linux.
  - onli 5y ago