4 ms·

I don't really understand how places looking to align their precautions with CDC guidelines can do this. We don't have any required vaccination "passport", so i

I don't really understand how places looking to align their precautions with CDC guidelines can do this. We don't have any required vaccination "passport", so if a movie theatre says vaccinated customers don't have to wear masks, how can they possibly tell who is vaccinated without relying on a dubious honor system?

wyldfire 6y ago
The dubious honor system that we relied upon for all the other vaccines?
- ineedasername 6y ago
  For things like MMR we don't really need the honor system because the vast majority of the population has been vaccinated and we're pretty much at herd immunity.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  When did we rely on that? Before, if I went to any business and told them I wasn't vaccinated, they would reply "Okay? So what? Sorry?". And school asked for documentation of the vaccines they wanted.
jkaplowitz 6y ago
Here's one way: The rules in NY already allow venues like baseball stadiums to ask for proof of full vaccination (i.e. 2 weeks after the second Pfizer/Moderna dose or 2 weeks after J&J) in exchange for giving those customers access to a seating section where the state's physical/social distancing and capacity limit rules are waived. There are other examples where the rules allow vaccination status to be checked in exchange for more permissive state rules. (And there's nothing in state law preventing businesses from requiring vaccination if they want to.) For Yankee Stadium, as one example, here are their proof requirements: "(a) a CDC-approved COVID-19 Vaccination Record Card; (b) Excelsior Pass; (c) a government-issued photograph identification and proof of vaccination form; or (d) electronically stored versions of any of the foregoing." [edit: This new system applies to Yankees games starting May 21 and later. Not sure about other venues.] Details: https://www.mlb.com/yankees/ballpark/information/fully-vaccinated-seating-sections https://www.mlb.com/yankees/ballpark/information/fully-vacci... Excelsior Pass is the state's own vaccination passport app/website, which indeed isn't mandatory but which is available to anyone who gets their vaccine series in NY. Yes, I agree this is not as practical for a small business of whatever kind.
- kelnos 6y ago
  The problem is that the vaccination record cards are trivial to forge, especially if "electronically stored version" also includes taking a photo with your phone. There are tons of photos of these cards floating around the internet. Someone with even limited photo-editing skills could slap their name on one of those images, copy it onto their phone, and an overworked ticket-checker at the stadium wouldn't tell the difference. And I expect that this behavior would be completely in character for your standard anti-vax or covid-denier type.
  - jkaplowitz 6y ago
    You're right of course, the nonzero percentage of fraudsters isn't high enough to cause a statistically impactful problem, I suspect. The deniers who make noises about faking cards and who are actually going to go beyond talk to action can't be that numerous, despite their appeal to sensationalist journalists. Once the pandemic is well and truly past, as is not that far in the future in places like NY, those few activist deniers' remaining impact will be even easier to handle than it is now.
quickthrowman 6y ago
They won’t, they’ll simply rescind the mask mandates and let the vaccine skeptics fend for themselves. Minnesota will be doing this within 6 weeks, I’m sure it’ll be more states soon, if not already.
- kelnos 6y ago
  The problem is that those who can't get the vaccine due to allergies or other medical conditions either a) then get lumped in with the skeptics to fend for themselves, or b) have to further increase their level of precautions and isolate from society.
  - postalrat 6y ago
    Isn't that unavoidable? There are no signs covid-19 is just going to disappear.
waiseristy 6y ago
I think this is the part where we have to just "let people be adults". We're at the point now where those who are at risk for COVID complications should have access to a vaccine which will greatly reduce that risk. For the rest of the population, it's on you if you want to go to a crowded movie theater without a vaccination. "If he dies, he dies"
- listless 6y ago
  I want to print this out and nominate it for a Pulitzer
- ineedasername 6y ago
  Except it's not really "on you". If you're sick, masks protect other people from you getting them sick too. So if an irresponsible unvaccinated anti-masker goes to the theatre and there's an unvaccinated but responsibly mask-wearing person, the unmasked person can get them sick. The responsible person pays the price.
  - waiseristy 6y ago
    I don't think it is responsible in the slightest to go to a crowded movie theater, unvaccinated, only wearing a paper mask. Even more so when a safe an effective vaccine is available. I understand your point, but this road goes both ways.
    - josephcsible 6y ago
      Do you think that no children under 12 should be going to movie theaters today? Because none of them are allowed to be vaccinated yet.
      - waiseristy 6y ago
        Well that depends on what dogma you choose to eat. Do you think that children are susceptible to complications from COVID? Other commenters in this thread have pointed out data that shows children have less chance of complications vs the common flu. Since this is the dogma I choose to eat, the one supported by facts and data, I would say that it would be fine for unvaccinated 12 year olds to visit movie theaters. As long as they aren't able to spread it to vulnerable family members who are unable to get the vaccine due to medical reasons. But even then, that should be a decision the family makes. Not the government
daenz 6y ago
Devil's advocate: people who say "trust the science/scientists" should do so even when they themselves disagree. I don't know your position, but I have seen similar responses to yours from people who I know have taken the position of "trust the scientists." Don't you think that the smart folks at the CDC have gone through a similar thought process as you and are issuing these guidelines regardless? Why would we not trust their judgement now?
- ineedasername 6y ago
  I have no problem with the CDC's guidance. I'm saying that I don't see a practical method for businesses to operate in accordance with that guidance.
  - daenz 6y ago
    The lack of specifics also gives us a lot of information. It says "do your best to enforce, but it is not critical if everyone doesn't adhere 100%." If it was critical, they wouldn't have issued these guidelines, or the guidelines would have come with other specifics like you mention with passports.
- cochne 6y ago
  The CDC is not recommending that all establishments allow people without masks though, it is only saying that if everyone is vaccinated then it is safe. If there is no way to guarantee that all are vaccinated, then this does not translate into a recommendation to drop a mask requirement. Consider a parallel. the CDC might say if an HIV+ person is taking some treatment, it is safe to have sexual relations with them. But if you do not trust the person you are with, your own personal policy would probably not be to have unprotected sex.
  - daenz 6y ago
    >it is only saying that if everyone is vaccinated then it is safe. Right, but like the previous poster said, we have no way of verifying. Maybe people do, but I don't think everyone carries their vaccination card with them, so how are establishments going to verify? They'll probably ask, and accept the answer. And as people are starting to point out, the unvaccinated will just lie. My point is that the CDC must have played this same thought experiment, but they are issuing these guidelines regardless.
niij 6y ago
Being vaccinated doesn't stop an individual from spreading it. It just prevents them from being severely affected. Vaccinations have been open to 18+ for long enough now. If you're not vaccinated at this point then you either can't be (and should be wearing a mask) or aren't concerned about COVID anyway. Considering that, what is the purpose of a vaccine passport? Who does it help?
- kelnos 6y ago
  It's been little more than a month since vaccinations have been open to 18+. Even if you managed to snag an appointment on day one when things opened up, you still aren't fully protected (based on the guidelines, anyway) if you got one of the 2-dose vaccines. Wearing a mask and distancing probably provides much less protection than a vaccine. So if you want to be vaccinated but can't be, being out among the people who inevitably have not been vaccinated but will claim to be so they can stop wearing a mask will be more dangerous to you.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

wyldfire 6y ago

The dubious honor system that we relied upon for all the other vaccines?

ineedasername 6y ago
For things like MMR we don't really need the honor system because the vast majority of the population has been vaccinated and we're pretty much at herd immunity.
Dylan16807 6y ago
When did we rely on that? Before, if I went to any business and told them I wasn't vaccinated, they would reply "Okay? So what? Sorry?". And school asked for documentation of the vaccines they wanted.

jkaplowitz 6y ago

Here's one way: The rules in NY already allow venues like baseball stadiums to ask for proof of full vaccination (i.e. 2 weeks after the second Pfizer/Moderna dose or 2 weeks after J&J) in exchange for giving those customers access to a seating section where the state's physical/social distancing and capacity limit rules are waived. There are other examples where the rules allow vaccination status to be checked in exchange for more permissive state rules. (And there's nothing in state law preventing businesses from requiring vaccination if they want to.) For Yankee Stadium, as one example, here are their proof requirements: "(a) a CDC-approved COVID-19 Vaccination Record Card; (b) Excelsior Pass; (c) a government-issued photograph identification and proof of vaccination form; or (d) electronically stored versions of any of the foregoing." [edit: This new system applies to Yankees games starting May 21 and later. Not sure about other venues.] Details: https://www.mlb.com/yankees/ballpark/information/fully-vaccinated-seating-sections https://www.mlb.com/yankees/ballpark/information/fully-vacci... Excelsior Pass is the state's own vaccination passport app/website, which indeed isn't mandatory but which is available to anyone who gets their vaccine series in NY. Yes, I agree this is not as practical for a small business of whatever kind.

kelnos 6y ago
The problem is that the vaccination record cards are trivial to forge, especially if "electronically stored version" also includes taking a photo with your phone. There are tons of photos of these cards floating around the internet. Someone with even limited photo-editing skills could slap their name on one of those images, copy it onto their phone, and an overworked ticket-checker at the stadium wouldn't tell the difference. And I expect that this behavior would be completely in character for your standard anti-vax or covid-denier type.
- jkaplowitz 6y ago
  You're right of course, the nonzero percentage of fraudsters isn't high enough to cause a statistically impactful problem, I suspect. The deniers who make noises about faking cards and who are actually going to go beyond talk to action can't be that numerous, despite their appeal to sensationalist journalists. Once the pandemic is well and truly past, as is not that far in the future in places like NY, those few activist deniers' remaining impact will be even easier to handle than it is now.

quickthrowman 6y ago

They won’t, they’ll simply rescind the mask mandates and let the vaccine skeptics fend for themselves. Minnesota will be doing this within 6 weeks, I’m sure it’ll be more states soon, if not already.

kelnos 6y ago
The problem is that those who can't get the vaccine due to allergies or other medical conditions either a) then get lumped in with the skeptics to fend for themselves, or b) have to further increase their level of precautions and isolate from society.
- postalrat 6y ago
  Isn't that unavoidable? There are no signs covid-19 is just going to disappear.

waiseristy 6y ago

I think this is the part where we have to just "let people be adults". We're at the point now where those who are at risk for COVID complications should have access to a vaccine which will greatly reduce that risk. For the rest of the population, it's on you if you want to go to a crowded movie theater without a vaccination. "If he dies, he dies"

listless 6y ago
I want to print this out and nominate it for a Pulitzer
ineedasername 6y ago
Except it's not really "on you". If you're sick, masks protect other people from you getting them sick too. So if an irresponsible unvaccinated anti-masker goes to the theatre and there's an unvaccinated but responsibly mask-wearing person, the unmasked person can get them sick. The responsible person pays the price.
- waiseristy 6y ago
  I don't think it is responsible in the slightest to go to a crowded movie theater, unvaccinated, only wearing a paper mask. Even more so when a safe an effective vaccine is available. I understand your point, but this road goes both ways.
  - josephcsible 6y ago
    Do you think that no children under 12 should be going to movie theaters today? Because none of them are allowed to be vaccinated yet.
    - waiseristy 6y ago
      Well that depends on what dogma you choose to eat. Do you think that children are susceptible to complications from COVID? Other commenters in this thread have pointed out data that shows children have less chance of complications vs the common flu. Since this is the dogma I choose to eat, the one supported by facts and data, I would say that it would be fine for unvaccinated 12 year olds to visit movie theaters. As long as they aren't able to spread it to vulnerable family members who are unable to get the vaccine due to medical reasons. But even then, that should be a decision the family makes. Not the government

daenz 6y ago

Devil's advocate: people who say "trust the science/scientists" should do so even when they themselves disagree. I don't know your position, but I have seen similar responses to yours from people who I know have taken the position of "trust the scientists." Don't you think that the smart folks at the CDC have gone through a similar thought process as you and are issuing these guidelines regardless? Why would we not trust their judgement now?

ineedasername 6y ago
I have no problem with the CDC's guidance. I'm saying that I don't see a practical method for businesses to operate in accordance with that guidance.
- daenz 6y ago
  The lack of specifics also gives us a lot of information. It says "do your best to enforce, but it is not critical if everyone doesn't adhere 100%." If it was critical, they wouldn't have issued these guidelines, or the guidelines would have come with other specifics like you mention with passports.
cochne 6y ago
The CDC is not recommending that all establishments allow people without masks though, it is only saying that if everyone is vaccinated then it is safe. If there is no way to guarantee that all are vaccinated, then this does not translate into a recommendation to drop a mask requirement. Consider a parallel. the CDC might say if an HIV+ person is taking some treatment, it is safe to have sexual relations with them. But if you do not trust the person you are with, your own personal policy would probably not be to have unprotected sex.
- daenz 6y ago
  >it is only saying that if everyone is vaccinated then it is safe. Right, but like the previous poster said, we have no way of verifying. Maybe people do, but I don't think everyone carries their vaccination card with them, so how are establishments going to verify? They'll probably ask, and accept the answer. And as people are starting to point out, the unvaccinated will just lie. My point is that the CDC must have played this same thought experiment, but they are issuing these guidelines regardless.

niij 6y ago

Being vaccinated doesn't stop an individual from spreading it. It just prevents them from being severely affected. Vaccinations have been open to 18+ for long enough now. If you're not vaccinated at this point then you either can't be (and should be wearing a mask) or aren't concerned about COVID anyway. Considering that, what is the purpose of a vaccine passport? Who does it help?

kelnos 6y ago
It's been little more than a month since vaccinations have been open to 18+. Even if you managed to snag an appointment on day one when things opened up, you still aren't fully protected (based on the guidelines, anyway) if you got one of the 2-dose vaccines. Wearing a mask and distancing probably provides much less protection than a vaccine. So if you want to be vaccinated but can't be, being out among the people who inevitably have not been vaccinated but will claim to be so they can stop wearing a mask will be more dangerous to you.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]